[seebee62]

My Glock 19 had that “slop” also.


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[George16]

The 'slop' between slide and grip is gone when a loaded magazine is inserted, because the top round pushes up against the stripper lug. Same thing with Glocks that have some of that play (my G21 same way), and you don't hear much about them going off in holsters.

Again, that striker safety would have to fail, AND the striker would have to cock first instead of slipping when cycling...a la dead trigger....and THEN slip off the sear.

And then it goes Bang! 😆.

 

[seebee62]

The female LEO that sued Sig.

Here is a link to her lawyers opening statement in court. There’s been a lot of speculation about what happened so here it is.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5852bfa4e6f2e1af914e56f3/t/5e4b5a8dc1cd5653bfcaaf01/1581996685148/THE+COURT4.pdf

2 things:
1.she had the gun in a P250 Holster.
2. The guy in New Hampshire that sued Sig in June 2020 had it in P250 Holster.

Here’s his complaint:

https://www.unionleader.com/sig-sauer-lawsuit/pdf_f05682b2-2361-573f-8c21-005cb88abc0f.html

In both cases they were moving the Holster around with the gun in it.

Seems to me there is a issue with the 320 in a 250 Holster.
The Canadian Special Forces soldier had his 320 in a modified 226 holster.

When I bought my 320 I bought a IWB Vedder Holster for a 320. This was in 2017.
The holster that came with my 320 I never used because I didn’t like it and it is OWB. For all I know it could be a 250 holster. It’s been in a drawer since 2017.


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[MoRivera]

So how about they try the P320 in a holster designed for the P320, and see how it goes?

Although frankly I can[t quite see what the P250 holster would be that far off, since the frames were pretty close and the trigger resting position wasn't much different either.

What you will see is a host of commendations, awards - bronze star awards I believe they're called - bonuses, promotions, commendations from citizens, from a United States senator. This is a person with an unblemished service record. Unfortunately, on the morning of February 7, 2018, as Marcie was arriving at the
Northern Virginia Justice Training Academy Institute for -- for training -- she was off duty but required to go to this course along with many other officers -- she was carrying the P320 in a SIG Sauer holster. A SIG Sauer P250 holster, which was the prior generation of SIG Sauer guns. This was the holster SIG Sauer issued in the P320 gun box when it was distributed to all LCSO deputies. There were no provisions stating that she could not use this particular holster.

Some of you may know the difference between a duty holster and a concealed carry, an off-duty holster. This was an off-duty holster. This was not a large, bulky service holster. Once again, however, the evidence will show that there was no policy, there was no general order of the LCSO against carrying this particular holster.
Now, as the judge mentioned briefly in her opening remarks, that morning, because of the institute's regulations, Marcie had to disarm. She had to remove her holstered weapon from her duty belt before she went into the academy for training.

In the process of doing that, she put her hand on the largest piece of the P250 holster. She began to jostle it. She moved it forward from her right side carry position. She's sitting in a car, ladies and gentlemen. It's very cold outside. It's February. She moves the holster. As she's jostling it, she's moving her left hand over. It fires.
Her hand never touched the gun. Obviously, never touched the trigger. The trigger, when
it's in the holster, ladies and gentlemen, cannot be touched.

It's very important when you consider the evidence to understand that -- I don't want to call it a basic fact, but if you don't know firearms, it's something you need to know. When the gun is fully seated in its holster, the trigger at best can maybe be touched from behind, but it -- it is not accessible to pull the trigger.

The evidence will show, ladies and gentlemen, that Marcie, when the shot fired,
did not even hear the shot or report of the gun. We submit and we will show that's because she never pulled the trigger. That's why she didn't hear it. It entered her right leg.

We will have two experts testify that the -- number one, that the weapon was holstered when it discharged so that she couldn't touch the trigger, so it was contiguous to the surface of her pants at the time the gun fired. That left what's called a very telling piece of evidence, gunshot residue, or GSR. It is on her pants in the -- essentially the same
shape of the opening of the holster, a rectangular shape. Our expert will testify that this fact establishes beyond any question that this weapon was fully holstered when it discharged, meaning the trigger could not be pulled.
We will have a second expert, ladies and gentlemen, testify that not only did the gun have a product defect in that it fired without a trigger pull - every gun owner's worst nightmare. That can't happen, ladies and gentlemen. Every -- every law enforcementofficer's worst nightmare. We all know guns should never fire unless the trigger pull -- a trigger is pulled.

The second expert will show that as a result of literally X-raying the gun, CAT scanning the gun, if you will, a manufacturing defect was found on top of the product defect. On top of the weapon discharging in the holster, our expert will testify that there was a manufacturing defect involving the sear springs. He will explain to you exactly what that means, how that impacts the -- the product safety of this weapon, crossed and tangled sear springs clearly visible upon the use of an X-ray.

The bullet that entered Marcie's leg did catastrophic damage to her right femur, ladies and gentlemen. We are 17, 18 months later, and she is still limping. We will
have a radiologist testify as to the damage that this nine millimeter bullet did to her leg. It essentially exploded her right femur in five different pieces so that they no longer were unified.

 

[Hammer]

And I can almost guarantee that you shoot many more rounds per year on any one of your pistols than most of these officers do on their duty sidearm.

This is actually a really good point. P320s in various forms are being used fairly extensively in competition these days, as like Mo referenced, by people like @George16, who are putting far more rounds through them and actively holstering and unholstering them far more often than the average LEO. Can anyone source any credible reports of "spontaneous discharges" from P320s being used in competition?

Just by the law of averages, you'd think that if the P320 was somehow inherently unsafe, we'd be seeing a lot more incidents where the high use of P320s is actually happening. The lack of that strongly suggests that something else is at play in the incidents being discussed (and endlessly regurgitated).

 

[MoRivera]

Just in general, I don't know if George has a P320 but the point was that the ones in question if duty firearms are probably not fired so much that the parts would wear to point of failure. Probably not as much as a P320 owned by more avid gun enthusiasts or those who do shoot them in competition.

Although.....according the lawyer's opening statement above, the sear springs in one case seemed to have worn out/deformed or were defective from the factory. If they were indeed defective and led to the striker slipping off the sear....still that strike block should have stood it unless that somehow wore out as well. Maybe there was a bad batch of springs. That;s happened with firing pin springs I ordered from an aftermarket. They wore in early and caused misfires/failures to ignite, and the supplier informed me the they had a bad batch.

 

[JJM320]

Yup, ANY high mileage gun needs to be attended to. I've had 1911's double and go full auto on me due to a bad / worn sear, hammer, or both. No gun is immune to end of service life of parts. Part and finish wear is why shooters create safe queens to be polished and admired by some, but not by me

I have one that does this too! Randomly will go full auto. So much fun! Gun is a mismatch military rebuild and has been used since the 50s.


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[Hammer]

Just in general, I don't know if George has a P320 but the point was that the ones in question if duty firearms are probably not fired so much that the parts would wear to point of failure. Probably not as much as a P320 owned by more avid gun enthusiasts or those who do shoot them in competition.

I thought I recalled George posting about a P320 Legion that he owns (or did own at one point), but regardless, there are other competitors that certainly are. You'd think we'd be seeing a lot more issues with the P320 in competition, but I can't recall hearing of any. Of course, if someone knows of a legit incident, I'm all ears.

 

[SigMHS]

This is actually a really good point. P320s in various forms are being used fairly extensively in competition these days, as like Mo referenced, by people like @George16, who are putting far more rounds through them and actively holstering and unholstering them far more often than the average LEO.

Can anyone source any credible reports of "spontaneous discharges" from P320s being used in competition?

No one likes to report it to anyone when they DQ.

 

[USMC Ret]

This is actually a really good point. P320s in various forms are being used fairly extensively in competition these days,

Pre-pandemic I was going through 1000 rounds a week; 9mm and .40. Both platforms are P320's. Practiced every start there is and holstered/unholstered a loaded gun thousands of times. Never a problem. Almost everything being used these days in competition are the big 3: SIG P320s, CZs and 2011s. Aside from a careless/overanxious competitor having an ND, no problems with the P320 platform competitively related. Any "spontaneous discharges" would most likely have been reported in any one of the newsletters published by competitive organizations. One last note: I hear SIG's team shoots a few P320's.....

 

[Hammer]

No one likes to report it to anyone when they DQ.

A little hard to hide that fact when you're in the middle of a competition. Multiple people would observe any such incident, like it or not.

 

[Oldrider]

Although I haven't read every single line of every post concerning the alleged spontaneous discharge of a P320 while still in a holster, I've read enough to have a few questions that I haven't seen addressed.

1. What was the experience level of the officers involved with a striker-fired handgun? Historical note: I was originally trained on DA revolvers and later transitioned to DA pistols, both in the military and civilian sectors. I did shoot competition with SA pistols, but never carried them as duty weapons. One drill that was practiced (fortunately not too often) was the "speed rock" or speed draw. In this drill, where you are engaging a target at very close range with a holstered weapon, you were trained to apply trigger pressure as soon as the muzzle cleared the holster, so that when the muzzle was on target (horizontal or nearly so), the weapon would fire. So if an officer has been trained on a traditional DA auto, and has recently transitioned to a striker-fired auto, there may be an issue with un-learning habits appropriate for the previous weapon, but certainly inappropriate for the new weapon. The Deputy from Virginia is an eight year veteran of the department. What weapon was she trained on in the academy, what weapon did she carry before the P320, what type of holster is she accustomed to carrying? All of these questions are pertinent.

2. There is a mention of holsters in the court proceedings of Virginia deputy. I had one of the poly multi-fit SIG holsters (I believe they're made by Fobus for SIG) and my P320 did not fit well in it. As it was only a $10 holster (on sale from CDNN), I threw it out. In this case, and others (such as the Canadian case where a P320 discharged when it was placed in a SIG P226 holster), I'd question what holster was being used, and especially if the holster was made for the P320 and was the right size, i.e., was a full size P320 being placed/carried in a carry/compact size holster. Another question would be if there is an internal retention device on the holster that engages the trigger guard, i.e. Serpa-style. Could this internal locking device apply pressure to the trigger in such a manner that minor jostling of the holster would allow the striker to move forward and hit the cartridge primer, firing the chambered round? Back to history, I remember product warnings about trigger shoes on DA revolvers, and even 1911 autos, that could hang up on the edge of a holster as the weapon was being holstered, causing the weapon to fire inadvertently.

In my over 50 years of experience with firearms, I've never seen one fire all by itself.

 

[MoRivera]

I have one that does this too! Randomly will go full auto. So much fun! Gun is a mismatch military rebuild and has been used since the 50s.


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I've seen a couple CZ Shadows do that during matches, but because the owners over-polished the sear/hammer area and likely wore through the surface hardening...so the mating edges wore prematurely. Obviously different than this case i.e. duty weapons which aren't customized.

 

[MoRivera]

A little hard to hide that fact when you're in the middle of a competition. Multiple people would observe any such incident, like it or not.

Also, if it was because of a weapons malfunction as opposed to an ND, I bet they'd be very vocal about it and would be in sth same boat as the officers in question.

 

[RDS40]

A little hard to hide that fact when you're in the middle of a competition. Multiple people would observe any such incident, like it or not.

I've seen AD's happen and at times by very experienced competitors. All were in a safe direction and caused no harm. NONE were during the draw or reholster portion. Virtually ALL of the occurred while it was in a Safariland holster with a WML capability "spontaneous discharges of the 320

The differences in the earlier 250 holster and the current ones only affect at area of the trigger guard. Even Comp-tac marked their line 250/320. Exterior dimensions of the early models were the same. More recent models have changed along with newer style triggers being more popular.

I had one of the poly multi-fit SIG holsters (I believe they're made by Fobus for SIG)

You are correct. Sig and Fobus had a early working relationship. Ever notice that the early 250 grip modules said "Made in Israel"? Never a fan of their products but they were made for a price and that price was LOW.

I had several of them due to them being included with the purchase. Never used one of them. the only time I ever saw them being used is as loaners at the academy. Spray painted yellow they really hoped the user would forget to return them.

I had a drawer full of them as loaners and eventually put them in the recycling bin and dropped them off at the recycling center in town.

 

[Hammer]

I've seen AD's happen and at times by very experienced competitors. All were in a safe direction and caused no harm. NONE were during the draw or reholster portion. Virtually ALL of the occurred while it was in a Safariland holster with a WML capability "spontaneous discharges of the 320...

Yup. For clarity, I'm not saying NDs don't happen at competitions - obviously they do from time to time. I'm referring specifically to the sort of 'spontaneous discharge' that some seem to continue to believe the P320 is capable of.

Interesting to hear that the NDs you've observed were all in Safariland WML holsters. So you said that none happened while drawing or re-holstering - so they went off while the pistol was just sitting in the holster?

 

[George16]

Just in general, I don't know if George has a P320 but the point was that the ones in question if duty firearms are probably not fired so much that the parts would wear to point of failure. Probably not as much as a P320 owned by more avid gun enthusiasts or those who do shoot them in competition.

Although.....according the lawyer's opening statement above, the sear springs in one case seemed to have worn out/deformed or were defective from the factory. If they were indeed defective and led to the striker slipping off the sear....still that strike block should have stood it unless that somehow wore out as well. Maybe there was a bad batch of springs. That;s happened with firing pin springs I ordered from an aftermarket. They wore in early and caused misfires/failures to ignite, and the supplier informed me the they had a bad batch.

I thought I recalled George posting about a P320 Legion that he owns (or did own at one point), but regardless, there are other competitors that certainly are. You'd think we'd be seeing a lot more issues with the P320 in competition, but I can't recall hearing of any. Of course, if someone knows of a legit incident, I'm all ears.

Yes, I have both the original X5 and X5 legion. I sold the Legion later after installing the TXG grip on my original X5 since the original X5 locks up better and more accurate. I have shot the original X5 since buying it back in 2018.

In our matches, Carry Optics division is dominated by the X5 and Shadow 2 ( I also shoot a my shadow 2 in Carry Optics). I haven’t seen anyone having an ND while bolstering or unholstering the weapon. One thing for sure though is we don’t allow using the Serpa holster for any pistol.

All the NDs I had seen in matches happened either while reloading on the run or during load and make ready while dropping the hammer on a DA/SA pistol without a decocker. I had my share of ND when reloading while moving to the next shooting position. However, this happened with my shadow 2 (1# 9 oz SA pull) and not with either X5.

As for holster, I’m using a Red Hill Tactical and CompTac for both guns. I like the RHT better.

 

[panthertom]

I recently retired after teaching science for 44 years. I found a new hobby in firearms. I spent hundreds of hours on YouTubes, thoroughly enjoying the experience. I wanted one gun to do it all (fun at the range, home defense, carry) because it made sense to develop skills using only one platform (for now). I found that near perfect gun in a P365XL, put a Holosun 507K on it, and got a good holster (Phlster AIWB). I've grown to love it but have been somewhat nervous having it chambered and pointing at anatomy that I highly value. I recently decided it was time to be a man and carry chambered, though there's a bit of irony there if my fears came true. Being a science teacher for so long, I first needed to see for myself just how these internal safeties work. Sorry, but internet warriors telling me that the gun can't go off by itself, or that only a fool would carry unchambered weren't enough to convince this grown up hippy. I was disappointed to find out that the only safeties in my Sig rested on the rear of the striker. If that were to break, as unlikely as that is, my manhood would end. BTW the external safety this model has as an option, which I wouldn't want anyway, would not prevent the disaster. I assumed that the P320 had a similar design, but that looks even less reassuring to me with all the complicated springs that someone earlier mentioned. Then I discovered the Glock design. Multiple internal safety redundancies. If one part fails, two others are still in place. Wow. Just what my manhood longed for. Sorry, P365XL, it was a nice ride while it lasted. I'm leaving you for a 43X MOS. You're losing your optic too.

 

[MoRivera]

I recently retired after teaching science for 44 years. I found a new hobby in firearms. I spent hundreds of hours on YouTubes, thoroughly enjoying the experience. I wanted one gun to do it all (fun at the range, home defense, carry) because it made sense to develop skills using only one platform (for now). I found that near perfect gun in a P365XL, put a Holosun 507K on it, and got a good holster (Phlster AIWB). I've grown to love it but have been somewhat nervous having it chambered and pointing at anatomy that I highly value. I recently decided it was time to be a man and carry chambered, though there's a bit of irony there if my fears came true. Being a science teacher for so long, I first needed to see for myself just how these internal safeties work. Sorry, but internet warriors telling me that the gun can't go off by itself, or that only a fool would carry unchambered weren't enough to convince this grown up hippy. I was disappointed to find out that the only safeties in my Sig rested on the rear of the striker. If that were to break, as unlikely as that is, my manhood would end. BTW the external safety this model has as an option, which I wouldn't want anyway, would not prevent the disaster. I assumed that the P320 had a similar design, but that looks even less reassuring to me with all the complicated springs that someone earlier mentioned. Then I discovered the Glock design. Multiple internal safety redundancies. If one part fails, two others are still in place. Wow. Just what my manhood longed for. Sorry, P365XL, it was a nice ride while it lasted. I'm leaving you for a 43X MOS. You're losing your optic too.

That would rule out the Walther PPQ/PDP, S&W M&P, HK VP9 and a bunch of others as well. So I'd say if you want to carry with one in the chamber like you should, then perhaps most striker-fired guns aren't for you if you're worrying about the incredibly slight chance that something internal will fail. Except maybe the Glock like you mentioned....which also has an internal plunger that could theoretically fail and striker, although not fully cocked, could also slip off the sear and might be enough to ignite a sensitive primer.

Like the Glock, more than one internal function in the P365 would have to fail at the same time for the firing pin to ignite a chambered round. Any one of which are no more mechanically likely in one model than the other. We have no proof or precedent to show that, say, the P365's blade-style firing pin block is more prone to failure than the Glock's plunger type. Just conjecture. Mechanical fact shows, however, that with either of those intact and working, the striker won't contact the primer.

By that same reasoning, however, there may be as much chance of a live round igniting by itself in any type of gun for that matter.......or the myriad of things that could go wrong in our cars while we're driving with oncoming traffic, and yet we do it every day without inspecting the car thoroughly beforehand. I would think a man of science would appreciate statistics and probability.

And yes, the P365 and P320 have more small springs and levers etc. than a Glock, but not necessarily moreso than a bunch of other designs that have proven both reliable and safe from many years of hard duty and military use.

A lot of times it's not 'internet warriors', but rather experienced gun owners and enthusiasts...with many years of personal research, knowledge and usage under their belts (a la outside of YouTube). Now you may have been a heck of a science teacher for 44 years, but if you're new to firearms my bet is that there's still a lot to learn as we all are still doing so.

If you feel more comfortable with a Glock, then good on you...they make really good, reliable guns. But if you're somehow implying that the P365 is mechanically less safe from a completely spontaneous discharge, or that those who choose it are somewhat reckless in doing so....not wise, and frankly myopic. Not the most educated of hypotheses, if you will. But...in all sincerity, welcome to the forum. Lots of good insight here.

 

[Heavy Industries]

I recently retired after teaching science for 44 years. I found a new hobby in firearms. I spent hundreds of hours on YouTubes, thoroughly enjoying the experience. I wanted one gun to do it all (fun at the range, home defense, carry) because it made sense to develop skills using only one platform (for now). I found that near perfect gun in a P365XL, put a Holosun 507K on it, and got a good holster (Phlster AIWB). I've grown to love it but have been somewhat nervous having it chambered and pointing at anatomy that I highly value. I recently decided it was time to be a man and carry chambered, though there's a bit of irony there if my fears came true. Being a science teacher for so long, I first needed to see for myself just how these internal safeties work. Sorry, but internet warriors telling me that the gun can't go off by itself, or that only a fool would carry unchambered weren't enough to convince this grown up hippy. I was disappointed to find out that the only safeties in my Sig rested on the rear of the striker. If that were to break, as unlikely as that is, my manhood would end. BTW the external safety this model has as an option, which I wouldn't want anyway, would not prevent the disaster. I assumed that the P320 had a similar design, but that looks even less reassuring to me with all the complicated springs that someone earlier mentioned. Then I discovered the Glock design. Multiple internal safety redundancies. If one part fails, two others are still in place. Wow. Just what my manhood longed for. Sorry, P365XL, it was a nice ride while it lasted. I'm leaving you for a 43X MOS. You're losing your optic too.

In all your research did you ever come across the term "Glock Leg"
Even tho the 320 & 365 is supposed to be all unsafe Ive never heard the term "SIG Leg"
Enjoy your Glock, see ya around.
Is the SIG for sale?