I believe red dots are more accurate, especially with followup shots. Lasers only good for home defense

 

I should have clarified that my normal use is for home defense and some indoor range training.

 

I'm a retired EE, so I will give you an EE answer. I think this is a really good question.

A reflex mini red dot sight (MRDS) sight is a collimated (parallel) beam of light focused on infinity, visible through the optic 1 power (1X) lens. You see the dot superimposed on the sight picture, which includes the dot. Seeing the Dot is not dependent on dispersion (widening) since it is projected on to, and collimated by, the lens, just in front of your eyes. In other words, the dot is always there. Superimpose dot on target, press trigger to rear, Boom. Round lands where dot was pointing. Every time.

An optical laser is also a collimated (parallel) beam of light focused on infinity, but the difference is, it is not seen through a lens. This beam must rest on a target in order to be seen by the user. The laser usually has an offset, since the laser is generally mounted below the gun. This means the beam and barrel are typically not parallel, so they will intersect at some point, down range, then cross over. So you have to decide at what range you want your beam to meet your barrel axis. Obviously you can set up the laser and bore axis to be parralel, and live with the error, which is not large, but non-zero.

A laser will also have higher dispersion, since it is in free space, not being focused by the lens. The imparted energy of small battery powered lasers can also be affected by atmospheric conditions (e.g. smoke or fog). This makes longer distance shots (25 yards+?) perhaps more challenging, since the dot may just wash out on you.

You may have issues discerning the laser dot when projected onto certain colors (imagine a green laser at a golf course, as an extreme example. A more realistic example would be projecting a laser onto say a human form, wearing a checked or plaid shirt.) When using a laser, you are focusing on the target, but you have to "see" the dot on the target in order to press the shot. If your target is small, and there are no other objects at the same range, landing the beam onto the target is going to be tricky, since you have no visual cue, other than when the laser intersects your target, and you can see it.

Reflex red dot sights have none of these disadvantages. They are however more involved to build (and thus more expensive) since they include a laser emitter, a lens, an optic body and additional electronics to control brightness, reticle type(s) and other settings. Lasers are (relatively) simple and inexpensive, but MRDS offer objectively better performance than a laser mounted in the front of the gun.

(Anecdotal, but I'd say literally every single time I'm at the square range next to someone with a laser, their target looks like Swiss cheese. I don't mean to say that you can't do good work with a laser, I am just saying that I see people at the range who don't seem to have their shooting ability enhanced by using one. YMMV, of course; I'm not trying to insult anyone.)

Based on using four dots on various guns (G34, G48, G19, P365X) since 2020, the MRDS I put on them had zero impact on my ability to carry, concealed or otherwise. Modern MRDS are just not that large, or that heavy, to make any perceptible difference.

 

Superimpose dot on target, press trigger to rear, Boom. Round lands where dot was pointing. Every time.

Retired MetE here. Good summary, thanks. Your comment about the round landing where the dot was pointing is true, but only at ranges near the distance the dot was zeroed. Physics and ballistics still apply. Try shooting your dot beyond 50 yards and gravity takes over. If your dot is zeroed up close, like say 7 yards, gravity starts to become an issue even at 25 yards.

I zero my (pistol) dot at 25 yards for reasons outlined here.

An Official Journal Of The NRA | Best Distance to Zero a Pistol-Mounted Red Dot

With the explosion in popularity of pistol-mounted red-dot sights, deciding what distance at which to zero has become a pressing issue.

www.shootingillustrated.com

My pistol laser is also zeroed at 25 yards. It shoots a bit high at shorter distances and a bit low but still functionally useful from 5-50 yards. Beyond that it’s tough to see the beam anyway.

Lasers are excellent indoors, especially at night (that’s the argument for a combination light/laser). Even in goofy positions without your eyes behind the gun, the round will hit within an inch or so of the beam regardless of where it’s zeroed. Dots are superior outdoors, especially in bright daylight.

 

Good question. As a coverted-to-red-dots person, I'd add that the grip/presentation of the pistol makes it easy to align on the red dot sight onto your target (it's exactly in between your eyes and the target, if your red dot is well sighted/calibrated). Whereas a laser may be below the straight line connecting your eyes, gun and laser's reflection on your target. This of course depends on the accuracy with which you have sighted your laser vs your target's distance (well explained by Rich, above).

The downside risk of a laser, especially at longer distances, is you may not see it without disrupting the desired straight line between your eyes, gun and target. In a self defense situation, you don't want to be searching for your laser, or for that matter, your red dot. In the end, either can work, but you've got to train, train, train and prep your solution to be able to perform in a life-threatening situation.

 

That’s the way to go, So much fun to shoot with laser .. optic is for precision targets
I have Olight baldr light/laser combo on my M4

 

My head hurts and I'm not sure what an EE is, but he certainly has had more education than I. My explanation is far simpler-it's a matter of personal preference. For me, a red dot works better.

 

Reminds me of going to a wine tasting many years ago. The guy running the win tasting went on about the various parings and what we should taste with each wine. Meanwhile the guy sitting next to me leaned over and quietly stated, "I don't know what he's talking about, I just know if I like the wine." And so it is with many things we do in our hobbies. Incidentally, an EE is an Electrical Engineer. Engineers tend to get very analytical. I know because I am an EE also.

 

I worked a wreck once, guy went to the hospital, Firemen found a boxed 45 with lazer in the car and gave it to me to return to the guy when I was cleared from the wreck. I cleared the weapon, ran a 10-29 on it, no hits. Then I took the empty weapon, pointed it towards a bank with lazer on, I soon realized that the lazer is not always so easy to see "out there" ... especially if it lands in a hole.or hits an object 1 or 100 feet past the target. I returned the weapon, got a reciept, I burried the weapon in his bag. He offered it to me for $300, I said no thanks. Then Dr. released him & he was arrested for DUI and off to jail we went. Jail locked all his belongings for the night.

RDS is there on the weapon, just like the sights. Just bring it up. Presumedly you already have a target out there. No "lost" RDS or irons.

 

Either way you go, just remember, when you need it the most, batteries will fail. I speak from experience. (Not lasers or RMR's, but flashlights, radios, etc.)

 

EE typically means Electrical Engineer. On the red dot vs laser (I did not read all replies), try targeting with a laser outside in daylight. Good luck. Maybe some military or LE lasers are strong enough, but ordinary across counter for shooting enthusiasts rarely are.

 

Lasers are best in low light conditions and at relatively short distances.

They have the advantage of not requiring a sight picture. So reflexive, moving, or constricted shooting is easier. You will often see LE SWAT entry shield guys with a laser equipped weapon since it's hard to be the shield man and also get a good sight picture.

For longer distances or more precise shots red dots are better.


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Wow! Thank you all so much for these thoughtful replies.

The great thing about the P320 is that I have so many options for all kinds of accessories. I am sure a RDS is in my near future!

 

And lazers also have a tendency to show the other guy ... where you are.

Swat guys train and train following that lazer.

 

Lasers are pretty useless for shooting outdoors in the sun.
The green ones are head and shoulders better than the red, although the max power is the same.
The human eye can see green better than red.
Cost doesn't really matter as they are all 5milli-watt regulated by the government.
Of course, the government is exempt from the regulation.
They are still a hoot to use, mount both, laser and holographic to have the best of both worlds.

 

A light and laser combo is not bad as long as you train with it. Some weapon light/laser combo has adjustment so that you can zero the laser at a certain distance. Once you zero the laser at a know distance you can shoot at different distance and see where the bullet impact. It's all about training yourself to be familiar with you equipment. Since this will be use also as a home defense gun that laser might even scare the perp and send him running.

 

Take the laser out on a sunny day and try shooting at 40 feet. The CrimsonTrace GreeDot is the best though

 

I should have been more specific! This gun will be for home defense and occasional range practice.

 

Very good question and discussion about a legitimate topic. Having a P320 does give you options, and the option you or someone else might choose can be both subjective and objective. It is subjective until the point you, through careful thoughts and consideration, scenarios, practice, cost, and "The YOU factor" make an informed objective decision for YOU based on the aforementioned.

I've trained with neither and both as all have an individual philosophy of use. My CCW has nothing attached to it as I'm not at the age where a optic sight is necessary as of yet, that day will be here most likely and if/when it arrives, it'll be a green dot rather than red for good reasons already mentioned but one not mentioned. That reason is astigmatism, beyond being able to see a green dot better in all conditions, if you have astigmatism like I do as I wear contacts and not glasses (glasses remove the astigmatism), you'll see the green dot better than red dot as there will be less "halo" with green.
My optic is a Holosun green dot mounted on a P322 which took it from tack driver to a pin driver, as well as making it plain out FUN and I can cowitness (SEE BELOW) the Holosun with the front sight perfectly (Got lucky there).

In our home however I have an Olight Baldr S mounted under our, "in the middle of the house, gotta get to it quick, don't have time to even raise it to sight line pistol". Why...? I believe the reason within the " " is both asked and answered.

In the range trips my wife and I make, she carries her CCW with only iron sights as well, we both make sure to do one thing given an optic or laser. That is to COWITNESS both with your iron sights as an optic and laser are both battery powered and electronic and can fail without warning. We do practice with the laser absent sight line acquisition but it's minimal and we always leave the range having fired our CCW lastly as that's the muscle memory we want to have first and foremost.

Adding one last thought, it's fantastic the we all have options to choose from to fit our needs/wants.

Here's hoping that none of us ever need it for it's intended purpose!

 

Very good question and discussion about a legitimate topic. Having a P320 does give you options, and the option you or someone else might choose can be both subjective and objective. It is subjective until the point you, through careful thoughts and consideration, scenarios, practice, cost, and "The YOU factor" make an informed objective decision for YOU based on the aforementioned.

I've trained with neither and both as all have an individual philosophy of use. My CCW has nothing attached to it as I'm not at the age where a optic sight is necessary as of yet, that day will be here most likely and if/when it arrives, it'll be a green dot rather than red for good reasons already mentioned but one not mentioned. That reason is astigmatism, beyond being able to see a green dot better in all conditions, if you have astigmatism like I do as I wear contacts and not glasses (glasses remove the astigmatism), you'll see the green dot better than red dot as there will be less "halo" with green.
My optic is a Holosun green dot mounted on a P322 which took it from tack driver to a pin driver, as well as making it plain out FUN and I can cowitness (SEE BELOW) the Holosun with the front sight perfectly (Got lucky there).

In our home however I have an Olight Baldr S mounted under our, "in the middle of the house, gotta get to it quick, don't have time to even raise it to sight line pistol". Why...? I believe the reason within the " " is both asked and answered.

In the range trips my wife and I make, she carries her CCW with only iron sights as well, we both make sure to do one thing given an optic or laser. That is to COWITNESS both with your iron sights as an optic and laser are both battery powered and electronic and can fail without warning. We do practice with the laser absent sight line acquisition but it's minimal and we always leave the range having fired our CCW lastly as that's the muscle memory we want to have first and foremost.

Adding one last thought, it's fantastic the we all have options to choose from to fit our needs/wants.

Here's hoping that none of us ever need it for it's intended purpose!

I like the idea of co-witnessing a laser and a red dot, to so much a red dot and iron sights. The comment about astigmatism is a good one as well. I have found (and tested) that the dot in a red dot is nearly irrelevant at short ranges. I tested this by shooting at a target with a red dot, aiming at 12 o'clock, 3, 6, and 9. The target was hit with a relatively small group regardless of point of aim. Out to 15 yards, the group ran four inches. In my situation, no longer being a LEO and being old and stove up and with not the best vision, I can't envision taking a shot at more than 15 yards. Beyond that, I can't see justifying a shooter as a threat (although there may be exceptions,) so I practice for the most likely scenario.

 

More great insights. I’m learning a ton on this forum. Thanks again Siggies!

 

The one thing and really the only thing I like about the laser is that you do not need to be in a “ready” position to get a target “in sight”
What ever the laser sees is what you get. At your zerod distance

 

Not just electrical. One of my daughters is a chemical engineer, the other is a biomedical. Thanksgiving is WAY over my head.

 

The best use I've found for a laser is to use it indoors to find my red dot on my optic. Usually as a combined flashlight laser.

 

The only gun that I own with a laser is my S&W 642 snubby in 38 special. The sights are tiny and the laser works fine, You couldn't really put a red dot on a snubby anyway.

 

The only gun that I own with a laser is my S&W 642 snubby in 38 special. The sights are tiny and the laser works fine, You couldn't really put a red dot on a snubby anyway.

Crimson Trace laser grips would be ideal on something like that


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My response is simple. I shoot better with a red dot than I do with a laser.

 

Lasers are gimmicky and an excuse for poor marksmanship in my opinion

 

I think from the view of visibly it paints you in the dark