[CaptainM16]

I'd like to do a Form 1 on an AR lower so that I can mount a 300 BLK upper (and possibly others), but if this is a "lifetime purchase" as most SBRs are, I want to get one of very high quality. What comes to mind is Sig and DD but I don't know if Sig sells just lowers. I'm all ears, and thanks in advance.

I highly recommend PSA Lowers (and Uppers). I have several PSA ARs, and they all run perfectly, and have LIFETIME warrantys. Putting my money where my mouth is, I did Form 1 a PSA Lower making it an SBR. I have expensive ARs (Daniel Defense, Adams Arms, and a Colt M16) but my PSA guns perform equally with the more expensive ones.

 

[CaptainM16]

@Gilly19 - You don’t SBR a lower - you SBR a rifle. One of the inputs on the form is the overall length of the rifle.,,so you need to include the upper. Once that lower’s serial number is registered as an SBR, it becomes an NFA item - regardless of what upper is attached.

Navy87guy, you are completely wrong regarding your SBR post. Uppers are NOT considered firearms according to the ATF. Uppers do not have serial numbers, can be shipped directly to your home, and do not require background checks. It is impossible to register an Upper as an SBR.
AR15 Lower Receivers, even a Stripped Lower without any other pins, springs, etc. attached to it is considered a firearm. This piece of aluminum can only be shipped to an FFL, requires a background check, cannot be sold to a convicted felon, and has a Serial number stamped into it. This Serialized chunk of aluminum can be Form 1 approved by the ATF as a Short Barrel Rifle (SBR). Once this chunk of aluminum AR15 Stripped Lower is approved by the ATF, federal law requires you to engrave the name, city, and state on it. My Form 1 ATF Tax Stamp shows the barrel length as 12.5 inches, and overall length as 27 inches, although a barrel and overall length can legally be any other dimension. My Form 1 application was completed and submitted nt the Silencer Shop, the Premier Class III dealer in America. They have successfully submitted untold thousands of ATF applications - they know what they are doing.
To reiterate, ONLY LOWERS can become an SBR, UPPERS CANNOT become an SBR.

 

[Navy87guy]

Navy87guy, you are completely wrong regarding your SBR post. Uppers are NOT considered firearms according to the ATF. Uppers do not have serial numbers, can be shipped directly to your home, and do not require background checks. It is impossible to register an Upper as an SBR.
AR15 Lower Receivers, even a Stripped Lower without any other pins, springs, etc. attached to it is considered a firearm. This piece of aluminum can only be shipped to an FFL, requires a background check, cannot be sold to a convicted felon, and has a Serial number stamped into it. This Serialized chunk of aluminum can be Form 1 approved by the ATF as a Short Barrel Rifle (SBR). Once this chunk of aluminum AR15 Stripped Lower is approved by the ATF, federal law requires you to engrave the name, city, and state on it. My Form 1 ATF Tax Stamp shows the barrel length as 12.5 inches, and overall length as 27 inches, although a barrel and overall length can legally be any other dimension. My Form 1 application was completed and submitted nt the Silencer Shop, the Premier Class III dealer in America. They have successfully submitted untold thousands of ATF applications - they know what they are doing.
To reiterate, ONLY LOWERS can become an SBR, UPPERS CANNOT become an SBR.

No, I'm not. I didn't say the upper was a registered part - but the form is to create an SBR, not an "SBL". You have to include the overall length of the rifle being created which requires the inclusion of an upper. You can change the upper (and there is actually a process to notify ATF which never gets followed) but the registration is for a rifle - not just one component. In fact, you even have to specify the caliber of the rifle being created - which is completely dependent upon the upper. See ATF Form 5320-1, Blocks 4 c, 4(e) and 4(f). The lower is the serialized part which gets tracked but when you register it is for a complete rifle.

 

[MoRivera]

I got what you were saying, as part of the Form 1 requires that you list both the barrel length as well as the overall length of the weapon. So you have to at least decide on what will be its 'base' configuration, but technically don't need to have the upper in hand if you can get measurements that are close enough at the time. Yo also have to list a single caliber, even if you plan on using the lower with different caliber uppers and conversions, etc. Even if your lower receiver says 'Multi-Caliber', you have to list just one...I as most listed 5.56 even though as shown above, you cool use 3 or 4 different calibers with it.

But yes sometimes folks do get a separate lower receiver to specifically be the one they will SBR. In my case it couldn't just be any one, it had to be a pre-ban (manufactured prior to 1994), which cost me mucho $$$. Thankfully those in free states don't have to and just get an extra sub-$100 Aero or PSA lower just for the SBR and maintain their existing rifles as non-NFA ones.

But yeah you have to have a main/base combination to put down with barrel and overall length.

 

[airgunner]

But yeah yo have to have a main/base combination to put down with barrel and overall length.

But only for the purpose of the paperwork. Once the paperwork is approved and you get your stamp back, you can make it into anything you want and contrary to what some people think, you don't have to keep the original upper that you listed on the paperwork.

I have 1 SBR that started off as a 10.5" 9mm AR. Then I converted it into an 11.5" 5.56. Then I converted it into a 4.5" 9mm and now its a 8" 300BLK. The only part from the original gun that remained during all those conversions is the lower receiver and it's all 100% completely legal.

So you can play semantics and say you are registering the "rifle" but we all know that in reality, you are really only registering the lower receiver.

As for what lower to use... Whatever floats your boat. Any quality receiver will do the job so it's really just personally preference. I would just recommend that you build and test whatever lower you choose (with a legal 16" or longer upper or as a pistol) to verify there are no issues with it before going through the hassle/expense of registering it as an SBR.

 

[MoRivera]

But only for the purpose of the paperwork. Once the paperwork is approved and you get your stamp back, you can make it into anything you want and contrary to what some people think, you don't have to keep the original upper that you listed on the paperwork.

I have 1 SBR that started off as a 10.5" 9mm AR. Then I converted it into an 11.5" 5.56. Then I converted it into a 4.5" 9mm and now its a 8" 300BLK. The only part from the original gun that remained during all those conversions is the lower receiver and it's all 100% completely legal.

So you can play semantics and say you are registering the "rifle" but we all know that in reality, you are really only registering the lower receiver.

As for what lower to use... Whatever floats your boat. Any quality receiver will do the job so it's really just personally preference. I would just recommend that you build and test whatever lower you choose (with a legal 16" or longer upper or as a pistol) to verify there are no issues with it before going through the hassle/expense of registering it as an SBR.

Yes of course once you get your stamp you can reconfigure with anything. My impression was at least technically, it's as long as you are able to 'return' it to its base configuration as listed, so keep it 'around'. But frankly, if that ever comes into question, you're probably already in deep doodoo for something anyway.

Put it this way, it's no problem keeping the original upper around since that's one of the main uses for my SBR anyway. Heck, you really don't want to get any shorter than a 10.3-10.5" 5.56 for anything anyway. Again, the main point is that when applying, at least have one in mind and have measurements that you can provide...preferably one that you'll likely keep around.

Mine's 'listed' as a 10.5" barrel, 29" overall. Now that overall is probably with the stock extended and the muzzle device, but whatever.

 

[MoRivera]

One other thing when it comes to a lower...if it matters...may be aesthetics.

For example, especially as you start getting into the more 'premium' makes such as Noveske...some are billet or such designs that are cool, like with integrated trigger guards and flared magwells, like....

But for some they may look a bit out-of-place or mismatched when paired with a standard mil spec forged upper receiver. Better suited to a 'matching' upper like....

Whereas your standard mil spec forged receivers are just that, standard, which is maybe more important for the upper when it comes to fitting various hand guards and such.

So perhaps a better chance of compatibility with whatever various uppers you may mate up down the road. May not matter to some as they'l still mate up and the same parts will fit in both, but for some it's at least more consistent if only visually.

 

[airgunner]

Yes of course once you get your stamp you can reconfigure with anything. My impression was at least technically, it's as long as you are able to 'return' it to its base configuration as listed, so keep it 'around'. But frankly, if that ever comes into question, you're probably already in deep doodoo for something anyway.

There really is no requirement to keep anything. They request if you make a permanent change to the SBR that you notify them but there is no such thing as a "permanent change" to an AR. Just about any change can be reversed but I don't blame anybody for keeping their original upper as insurance.

I also agree that if you're having this conversation with an ATF agent or a Lawyer then you probably have much bigger issues to worry about anyway.

 

[CaptainM16]

No, I'm not. I didn't say the upper was a registered part - but the form is to create an SBR, not an "SBL". You have to include the overall length of the rifle being created which requires the inclusion of an upper. You can change the upper (and there is actually a process to notify ATF which never gets followed) but the registration is for a rifle - not just one component. In fact, you even have to specify the caliber of the rifle being created - which is completely dependent upon the upper. See ATF Form 5320-1, Blocks 4 c, 4(e) and 4(f). The lower is the serialized part which gets tracked but when you register it is for a complete rifle.

What you are saying is not correct. If you attach a Lower with a Buttstock to any upper with a barrel less than 16 inches, the ATF defines it as an SBR. You can have short barrels with a Pistol Lower legally, as long as the Lower does not have a Buttstock or a Vertical Grip on the Upper.
You are not even required to own an Upper in order to register a Lower as an SBR. ATF requires you to enter Caliber, Barrel Length, and Overall Length, but whatever you enter is meaningless because there is no requirement to even own an Upper. As I said, the Upper is not even defined as a Gun, Rifle, or Firearm by the ATF. An SBR is an ATF legal AR Pistol with a Buttstock. Saying a Lower is not an SBR is factually incorrect, even though it is a government definition that does not make sense. Just like the ATF defining a Drop In Auto Sear a “Machine Gun” even if you do not own a Lower or Upper. My DIAS Form 4 states Machine Gun, M16, and N/A for Barrel Length, Overall Length, and Caliber. It has a Serial number, and is by itself defined as a Machine Gun.
Bottom line, a Lower can be Form 1 approved as an SBR, and can be used with ANY Upper or groups of Uppers, and does not require noticification or approval of the ATF. I can use my SBR with any of my uppers. I can use my DIAS with any upper, and any low shelf Lower, whether or not it is an ATF SBR. (Machine Gun trumps SBR). I can use my M16 Lower with any long or short barrel Upper.
I have walked the walk with SBRs, Machine Guns, and Silencers, completing and receiving approved ATF Tax Stamps. I speak the truth, learned from personal experience. ATF rules do not make sense, especially under the Biden crime family.

 

[hiketheball]

I'd like to do a Form 1 on an AR lower so that I can mount a 300 BLK upper (and possibly others), but if this is a "lifetime purchase" as most SBRs are, I want to get one of very high quality. What comes to mind is Sig and DD but I don't know if Sig sells just lowers. I'm all ears, and thanks in advance.

Sig
Daniel Defense
Both make AR pistols that require no modifications. I know DD does in 300 BLK. I don't know about Sig.
Adding a different upper than the original is easy on the DD.
DD has nice controls.

Aero Precision also has great lower to build or completed lowers.

 

[MoRivera]

There really is no requirement to keep anything. They request if you make a permanent change to the SBR that you notify them but there is no such thing as a "permanent change" to an AR. Just about any change can be reversed but I don't blame anybody for keeping their original upper as insurance.

I also agree that if you're having this conversation with an ATF agent or a Lawyer then you probably have much bigger issues to worry about anyway.

There might not be a requirement, but what difference does it really make though? Like why wouldn't you keep it and use it unless you need to sell it to fund another, so why did you get it to begin with? And what kind of resale market is there for second-hand AR uppers? That's why you might as well 'list' one that you'll likely use a lot or keep around, like a short 5.56, just I case anyone 'asks'. Just a little thought to put into it even if you just have a lower that you'll match with an upper later.

But yeah if you just have to list one, you can probably list any length...10.5, 12.5, 13.2, etc. and then approximate the overall length.

As I wrote before....5.56 caliber, 10.5" barrel, 29" overall length. Done, everyone can just put that down.

 

[Fred Ward]

Palmetto State Armory has complete lowers.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/ar-15/lowers/complete-lowers.html

I'm personally quite fond of PSA AR's. I've built several, and find them as accurate and dependable as any other on the market. You can spend more-buy why?

 

[scody21]

Just build a 10” inch 556 pistol without a stock and forward vertical grip. Done, an “SBR” without all the hassle… Don’t put a butt stock and forward grip on it…

 

[CaptainM16]

Just build a 10” inch 556 pistol without a stock and forward vertical grip. Done, an “SBR” without all the hassle… Don’t put a butt stock and forward grip on it…

Yes, you can have an AR Pistol with a short barrel, even with a Pistol Brace - FOR NOW. The Biden Crime Family’s ATF has announced it is going to reverse their definition of an SBR to include AR Pistol braces. ATF ststed that if you have an AR Lower with a Brace and less than 16 inch barrel you will have three choices:
1 - Destroy it
2 - Surrender it to the ATF
3 - Submit a Form 1 to the ATF and convert it into an SBR
The ATF final rule change is to be announced before Jan 1.
The ATF is being cowardly. Instead of prosecuting criminals and seizing their illegally owned guns thay are instead turning millions of responsible law biding gun owners into felons. Not through the Constitutional requirements of passing a law, but just changing their mind and declaring new definitions. The ATF has written official letters stating that AR Pistol Braces are NOT SBRs, but now are contradicting their own words and decision.

TO ALL SigTalk readers: BEWARE that some information on these websites is absolutely not correct. Likely not intentionally, but incorrect none the less. Heed any advice you read here and do serious research before making decisions, especially a decision that could put you in jail.
Over.

 

[DrewBone]

Nice looking configuration. 👌 What upper is that?

Thanks! The upper is an Anderson Manufacturing Lightweight Sport AR bare upper receiver that I purchased from Aim Surplus for $48, with no forward assist or ejection port cover because I required neither:

The handguard is one of the MP-5 style AR-V models from Bowden Tactical, available in different lengths.

 

[TerminalSigness]

You guys are way more trusting of the government than I am. I don’t own an SBR, nor do I plan on getting one. I am at max visibility as it is, just don’t want more paper. That is a personal doctrine, and may not apply to others.

That being said. I have just read that you have to state some info about the upper, at least length. Maybe other things, I dont know.🤷‍♂️ I’ve also just read that if you make any “permanent” changes, you have to notify. IF those two things are correct, then disposing of that upper, if it’s info was listed, IS a “permanent” change. Even if that upper info is not listed anywhere, that “permanent“ change language, can mean anything they want it to mean. If they go down that road, and ask you if you’ve changed anything, you are in a classic process crime trap.

 

[Jason James]

I like CMMG and Alexander Arms

 

[Gilly19]

I am the original poster. I appreciate everyone's input, and I didn't expect all of the back-and-forth about the Form 1 legalities, but having done three of them myself, you do have to provide the overall length of the SBR which can be tricky if you can't actually (legally) assemble the gun to take a measurement, so it's really an estimate. Even so, my opinion (at this time) is that the only "firearm" being registered is the serialized lower, as expressed in the original post. The OAL of the firearm is hypothetical since it cannot be constructed prior to approval.

That said, thanks to everyone who chimed in on the lower. The surprising thing to me is the number of people advocating for PSA lowers; I have one in the safe but I got it for $150 so I assumed it was "cheap". I might have to reconsider this one.

 

[FreeTacos]

I am the original poster. I appreciate everyone's input, and I didn't expect all of the back-and-forth about the Form 1 legalities, but having done three of them myself, you do have to provide the overall length of the SBR which can be tricky if you can't actually (legally) assemble the gun to take a measurement, so it's really an estimate. Even so, my opinion (at this time) is that the only "firearm" being registered is the serialized lower, as expressed in the original post. The OAL of the firearm is hypothetical since it cannot be constructed prior to approval.

That said, thanks to everyone who chimed in on the lower. The surprising thing to me is the number of people advocating for PSA lowers; I have one in the safe but I got it for $150 so I assumed it was "cheap". I might have to reconsider this one.

I would not hesitate to use the PSA lower, as mentioned earlier, I have thousands of rounds through mine with no issues. That's why I decided to get another one for my 300blk SBR. If I didn't already have a great experience with a previous PSA, I probably would have gone with the next step up (in price anyway) with an Aero Precision for my SBR. Can't go wrong with either imo.

 

[MoRivera]

You guys are way more trusting of the government than I am. I don’t own an SBR, nor do I plan on getting one. I am at max visibility as it is, just don’t want more paper. That is a personal doctrine, and may not apply to others.

That being said. I have just read that you have to state some info about the upper, at least length. Maybe other things, I dont know.🤷‍♂️ I’ve also just read that if you make any “permanent” changes, you have to notify. IF those two things are correct, then disposing of that upper, if it’s info was listed, IS a “permanent” change. Even if that upper info is not listed anywhere, that “permanent“ change language, can mean anything they want it to mean. If they go down that road, and ask you if you’ve changed anything, you are in a classic process crime trap.

That's kind of what I meant before about plan on doing it with an upper you'll likely keep around for the life of the gun. Like at least a good utility short-barreled 5.56, or one you'll shoot surpressed. And use that as the 'master' configuration you list for measurements. And really with an AR no change to the upper is ever 'permanent', that's why we can change uppers to our hearts content.

And even if say you do dispose of your 11.5" upper, you can just get or build another one if desired and none of those parts are serialized. So it's actually a pretty simple thing to maintain, and having one SBR lower gives you a lot of versatility with barrels and calibers, with an actual buttstoock and not something that may or may not be legal.

You're obviously always going to want to have at least one upper with it to shoot, so might as well make it one you can see yourself keeping forever, list its barrel length and the gun's overall length with it installed, and you're good to go. But as alluded to before, the only time that the ATF or whoever would likely check if your current configuration matches what you registered as is if you're in bigger trouble and the weapon was seized in a search anyway. Or say if you're pulled over and you have to provide proof of legal ownership, but even then it's not illegal to have it with a different upper at that particular time.

I just keep a copy of my tax stamp in a baggie and in the pistol grip, which has a trap-door container.