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That is one reason I like the DA/SA SIGs. I like the forgiveness of that DA first pull in case "stress and startle" causes my trigger finger to "twitch" and press the trigger before my higher brain tells me I shouldn't shoot at that person.
 

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I just bought my sig for this reason. Not saying there is anything wrong with glock or the people who like them (to each their own). Just thinking for me, I would be more comfortable walking around with one chambered and a first long pull. I would bet if the situation came about I would be so worked up I don't want to worry about a manual safety
 

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That is one reason I like the DA/SA SIGs. I like the forgiveness of that DA first pull in case "stress and startle" causes my trigger finger to "twitch" and press the trigger before my higher brain tells me I shouldn't shoot at that person.
You got a higher brain?
 

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I might be playing devil's advocate here but I still can't blame the gun. Regardless of the reason why, cops should be better than that. If not, for whatever reason (training, stress, etc), then they do not belong in the job. Lack of training is a departmental issue that should be addressed but it still remains up to the individual in any profession where a weapon is carried to be totally proficient with whatever weapons they carry.

If stress affects you to the point that you cannot properly do your job (or follow muscle memory and training) then find another job. Finger off the trigger until it's time to shoot. I don't want to monday morning QB anyone but you shouldn't be in that job if you can't handle extreme levels of stress professionally. Everyone can make a mistake, but if the individual cannot correct the mistake through training then it may be time to consider another profession. I'm not saying fire any officer who has a ND but certainly it would be time to re-evaluate.

All of that being said, I carry a Sig, not a glock. ;)
 

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^Perhaps we simply expect too much. Drive cars fast, long enough and you're gonna experience a crash. Nature of the job.

I've not looked at any of the data, so I'm speaking from a fair amount of ignorance. I have spent a fair amount of time running through the woods with sharp sticks and loaded guns.

Stress is stress, things going sideways is things going sideways and in those situations striker, DA/SA, claymore clacker- the trigger is getting pulled. In some of those cases, the nanosecond of clarification prior to someone getting bit might find us wanting to have not sent a boolit on it's way, but we don't have that luxury. It's not about not shooting people, more it's about not getting yourself shot. Don't freak out the person holding the loaded gun. Follow? What that sometimes sounds like from the person that hit the bang switch is, "I didn't mean to.". Aka, it sounds like a negligent discharge, when the reality is it was scary dark, I knew Freddy Krugger was stalking me, and just as I spotted the guy in a clown suit a balloon popped. Had I not shot him 5 times, someone should have wondered if I was taking things seriously enough.

Then there's the probability that given enough instances of pointing loaded guns at people, there will be a predictable number of people inadvertantly getting shot. (Remember that reserve deputy that intended to tazer a guy but shot him instead?) I'm sure some of those could be reduced via different platform and training. The cited example in the article resulted not from a particular trigger but for failing to clear the weapon.

A facet of weapon use in the military was weapon awareness practiced by the team. Which was fairly amazing considering you couldn't trust half of the team to not fall in love with a hooker. At times it was like training with a bunch of 10yr old tattle tales. You check your battle buddy's weapon, he checked yours, then the two of you check the other team, then your team leader checked and the whole time "weapons on safe", " weapons clear", "lock and load", "weapons on fire", " fingers off the trigger", "muzzles!".... In more mature teams/units that dynamic was still woven into the fabric, less vocal, but present.
For some reason I don't see that happening within cop culture. Could be wrong.

Yet even in all ^that^, ND's happen.
Anyhoo, thinking out loud.
 

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I had a couple of thoughts after reading this:

1. Glad I didn't choose Law Enforcement as a career....and it was a close call. I think I would have loved the work back in the 1970's when I got out of college...but today, not so much.

2. For safety sake DA/SA is the way to go it would appear. Which is why I stopped carrying my 320 with the 4 1/2 pound out-of-the-box trigger and no safety or decocker and stared carrying a Walther P99cAS (striker fired! 8# DA first shot, 4# SA all the rest and a very nice placed-out-of-the-way decocker) or an S&W 640. Or my 229E2 with the smoothest 8 lb DA ever and 3 lb SA....also out of the box. Or at least out of the box it came in when I bought it 2nd hand.

3. If the problem is significant for trained, practiced police....what does that say about those of us who carry concealed and don't train as much as law enforcement? I wonder what percent of folks who carry train at all...or just train at the range shooting bullseyes?

4. I've never liked Glock....no charm, no personality, no trigger, and yeah, it's just a "tool," but tools don't have to be ugly . And after reading that book from a few years ago about how glock marketed....I don't want to do anything to encourage them. Sig and Walther both make better "glocks" than Glock and S&Ws 39 and 59 series guns...can't get enough of em (not so much so with the M&Ps...too much after market work needed to bring 'em up to out of the box Walthers or Sigs.
 

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This entire article is BS. Because the issue is not the Gun, or what gun. It is the mindset that encourages Children to run with scissors.
It is the current mindset of LEO's regarding unholstering is the true cause of ND's.

Folks. As armed Citizens (LEO and otherwise) we need to remember we deploy a weapon in anticipation of it's use. Not as a instrument of intimidation. The shift in thinking of the last 20 years (Compliments of TV and others) is that the Badge is no longer the instrument of intimidation to encourage compliance. We have now transferred that instrument of compliance to the Gun. As an Empty Threat. (for the most part).

You have a decision tree mindset that is as follows:
1. Recognize stressor and conflict.
2. Decide to act.
3. Decide to access weapon. (Put your hand on it. Just in case you lost it or left it somewhere)
4. Decide to deploy weapon (Get it out of a safely secured position and remove one hand out of service for use by any other tool or use for access.)
5. Review threat level. (See if other guy has weapon or is intending to resist)
6. Take action to encourage compliance (Threaten with weapon).
7. React to stimulis regarding need to use deadly force.

7 steps. During 5 of which you have the weapon Unsecured.

IF I deploy the weapon it is in a smooth process from Draw, Aim, FIRE. I recognize the target and threat and neutralize it. I have to Train to recognize a Threat that needs to be shot.

Your mother taught you to never run with scissors. That same applies to Guns.

That is how you avoid Negligent Discharge.
 

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Been saying it for years. Striker-fired pistols are too unforgiving for the average cop who qualifies once a year and almost never goes to a range on his own.
Pat. For once, I have to disagree. With respect.

Your mamma taught you. "Don't run with scissors". Both as LEO and as a armed citizen, the weapon has never been a tool of Intimidation or used to enforce compliance. it has been safe and secured to encourage safety. And like the Marines I have always been polite and courteous to everyone I met with a clear plan to kill them on a moment's notice.

Police training should never use a Firearm to intimidate to compliance. If it leaves the holster it is going "Bang" in 1/2 to 1 1/2 seconds. (Depending on how out of breath I am).

That was how I was taught. Other tools (Taser, Baton, Cuffs, Sap Gloves) are the tools of compliance. The Gun is to Stop the Threat. Warn and then, IF threat persists, Draw-Aim-Fire. And fill out the paperwork. His chance left when my weapon left the holster.
 

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It really does not go at all like you may think. Seven steps neatly followed. The criminologists and lawyers devised a "use of force matrix" to be followed by cops on the street. Much like a decision-tree, first you do this; if that doesn't work, you do this; if not that, then you do this, etc., increasing the use of force as you proceed across the continuum.

Guess what? It doesn't work. Bad guys don't resist (or kill) in a nice, neat flow of escalation or deescalation. That's why the "use of force matrix" has gone the way of the PR 24 and other neat whiz-kid created weaponry. I put the striker-fired pistol in the same category. Just as sudden as violence explodes in your face, it stops.

I own striker-fired pistols and am particularly fond of the P320 and Walter PPQ. But I will opt for the P226 or any other DA/SA pistol for patrol duty any day of the week (and twice on Sunday).

Now, I can tell you from my own personal experience that I have had at least three cases (I can now clearly recall but I suspect there's more) in which I had an armed BG in my sights and began to press the trigger when suddenly he threw up his arms or threw down his weapon or hit the deck in surrender. The trigger was at least 1/3 of the way home when I stopped pressing. Had this been with a striker-fired weapon I am afraid I would have to live with the consequences of killing a man who was either unarmed or otherwise giving up. I know the striker-fired pistol is just too unforgiving for real-world application. And I think we're seeing the real-world failures of our police whose weaponry (and training) are ill suited to the world we throw them into.
 

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Frankly, I think this article is long on opinion, and short on truth. It is all a matter of the individual and their habits. Glocks are no more dangerous than any other pistol. ANY firearm handled inappropriately will yield disastrous results. More poppycock for the circle file.

UPDATE: Let me say that this is not something that I take lightly. There is more to this than what the author purports, such as style or means of shooting, i.e. competition, range/recreational and defense shooting. Over the years I have carried and trained with striker fire guns, SAO guns and the DA/SA, and I have come to the conclusion that I shoot one (striker gun) considerably better than another type as it relates to defense shooting. When it comes to range or recreational shooting, like most, I tend to shoot the SA pistol better, and this would include the DA/SA pistol in SA mode. I know that people can train with their guns to become extremely proficient with them, so I'm not going to say that I can't shoot a DA pistol as well as my striker fire gun, but I will say that I think it is easier to become proficient with a striker than it is with a DA pistol. The truth is the long DA pull more difficult to learn to shoot proficiently given the fact that you're also working with a SA mode. It can be done, but it requires considerably more work for most. Striker fire guns are easier to learn than DA/SA guns, and they're far more forgiving than SAO guns. Granted, one can accidentally discharge a round easier with a striker gun than with a DA/SA gun, but that is an individual thing, not a gun thing. I've never experienced a ND with a striker gun. I can't say that about a DA/SA gun, so again, I say it is on the individual, not the gun. Now, I will say that no gun that is used for a defensive role should have a light trigger on it. Some of these folks to lighten their carry guns to 3lb triggers are begging for disaster, IMO. The PPQ is one gun I don't think I could carry simply b/c the trigger is extremely light for a defensive pistol, and in fact, it is reported that the German police refuse to carry it b/c of that very thing. I think a striker gun for carry should have a trigger no lighter than 6lbs, but that is just me.
 

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Now, I can tell you from my own personal experience that I have had at least three cases (I can now clearly recall but I suspect there's more) in which I had an armed BG in my sights and began to press the trigger when suddenly he threw up his arms or threw down his weapon or hit the deck in surrender. The trigger was at least 1/3 of the way home when I stopped pressing. Had this been with a striker-fired weapon I am afraid I would have to live with the consequences of killing a man who was either unarmed or otherwise giving up. I know the striker-fired pistol is just too unforgiving for real-world application. And I think we're seeing the real-world failures of our police whose weaponry (and training) are ill suited to the world we throw them into.
I believe it's all a matter of training and individual preference. There are those who can shoot the DA/SA as efficiently as those who are efficient with striker fire guns, but it doesn't mean one is better than the other. Circumstances dictate a lot of situations where people are shot accidentally, such as you're in the middle of a shoot out. You returned fire with a couple shots and now your DA/SA pistol is in SA mode. Due to the stress of the situation you failed to decock your pistol to return it to the DA mode, and the BG somehow puts himself in the position for you to have him in your sights...are you able to pull the trigger to 1/3 of the way home? No. You'd shoot him if you tried that in that situation, so in that situation perhaps a striker fire would be better b/c you're accustomed to one manual of arms. Consistency is a good argument to be made for the striker, but again, it all goes back to individual training, and honestly, if you don't train with your gun you really have no business carrying it, IMO, especially if you're a LEO who is obligated to give chase.
 

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As a G23 fan I will defend the Glock, plain and simple it works. do I like it as much as I do my P229..no. but I have way more trigger time on a G23 (thousands of rounds) I know to keep my finger out of the trigger guard until I'm on target and I watch my pistol into the holster every time (appendix or 4'oclock) the Glock safe action pistol is no more dangerous to own, operate, and carry than a DA/SA or a cocked and locked SAO....negligent discharges are exactly that, negligence on the part of the operator not a design factor of the gun, I carry Sigs, Glocks and a 1911, I spend hundreds of dollars a year remaining proficient on my chosen platforms, I do not get in a hurry or show off handling any of them.

If you blow a hole in something by accident it is "your fault" not the guns
 

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Glock has, in fact, responded by offering police heavier trigger pulls.

They also offer police pistols with unique interior bore markings to further uniquely identify a specific barrel that belongs to a specifically serialized pistol issued to an officer. The easy barrel switch out has become a concern and was a developing theme. Thus, bullet matches barrel, ergo, barrel must match pistol.
 

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Glock has, in fact, responded by offering police heavier trigger pulls.

They also offer police pistols with unique interior bore markings to further uniquely identify a specific barrel that belongs to a specifically serialized pistol issued to an officer. The easy barrel switch out has become a concern and was a developing theme. Thus, bullet matches barrel, ergo, barrel must match pistol.
I knew about the heavier pull weights, but was unaware of the barrel matching. That is a good idea.
 

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They also offer police pistols with unique interior bore markings to further uniquely identify a specific barrel that belongs to a specifically serialized pistol issued to an officer. The easy barrel switch out has become a concern and was a developing theme. Thus, bullet matches barrel, ergo, barrel must match pistol.
Why?
 
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