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In may in fact be as you say. However you are still breaking one of the cardinal rules by doing so. ‘Never point your weapon at anything you’re not willing to destroy’.
I understand the rule well. And... your correct to a point. Even at 3/4 o’clock at some point your leg(s), feet WILL get swept by your weapon while holstered as well unless you walk like a robot 100% of the time.
 

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I’ll also add (then get out of the way😁) that every single instructor I’ve ever had during a concealed carry, active shooter, EDC class has always carried their personal weapon in AIWB. Not one has personally carried even at 3/4/5 o”clock. Now, other classes that utilize OWB sure. But from a “concealed” start. They’ve always carried AIWB. And to me they were all very good instructors, teachers and experienced people.
 

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Nice video but what the hell? That’s not what I wrote. What’s the matter, ya can’t handle the fact that I’m a little bit more right for what you’re giving me credit for on what I actually wrote and ya can’t handle it?


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Just demonstrating that emotional arguments have no basis. Swapping the subject of your argument didn’t change anything that you were saying. I could have substituted “swimming pools” and “swimming pool owners” just as easily.

Anger is a sign that your logical side is too conflicted to decide between two points, thereby handing the decision to the emotional side by default. You’re welcome to have an opinion, even a wrong one. Just stop getting surprised that you’re going to get called out for it. Or come back with data backing your claim.
 

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Discussion Starter #104
AIWB carry is 100% safe! Just use a quality Kydex holster, dedicated gun belt and train. All will be well and nothing else is worth discussing. This is the truth.
I don't think anything is 100% safe :ROFLMAO:

This discussion has been super interesting, and I appreciate everyone's input. It hasn't really moved the needle for me either way. On one hand, I believe it's probably about as statistically safe as any other method of carry. But I still struggle with 1) how much time the loaded gun is pointed at me and 2) the "what ifs".

Anything mechanical can fail. Even if it never has in the past, it doesn't make it impossible. Maybe highly improbable, and that's good enough for most. But if I can carry in a way that is unlikely to do grave damage to me if the highly improbable happens, it seems like that would be the best way to go. I dunno. I don't judge anyone who carries AIWB, but I think the only way I'd be comfortable is without a round in the chamber, therefore, I don't think I'll do it.

Thanks for all the input, guys.
 

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Discussion Starter #105
I understand the rule well. And... your correct to a point. Even at 3/4 o’clock at some point your leg(s), feet WILL get swept by your weapon while holstered as well unless you walk like a robot 100% of the time.
Obviously, anywhere you carry, you are likely to sweep yourself or someone else at some point. But at 3/4 o'clock, it's maybe 5-10% of the time the gun is pointed at something. AIWB it would be upwards of 80% for me. That's a big difference. Not to mention that, if I had to pick, I'd rather take one in the calf than the thigh or junk. I don't think I can get past that.
 

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I don't think anything is 100% safe :ROFLMAO:

This discussion has been super interesting, and I appreciate everyone's input. It hasn't really moved the needle for me either way. On one hand, I believe it's probably about as statistically safe as any other method of carry. But I still struggle with 1) how much time the loaded gun is pointed at me and 2) the "what ifs".

Anything mechanical can fail. Even if it never has in the past, it doesn't make it impossible. Maybe highly improbable, and that's good enough for most. But if I can carry in a way that is unlikely to do grave damage to me if the highly improbable happens, it seems like that would be the best way to go. I dunno. I don't judge anyone who carries AIWB, but I think the only way I'd be comfortable is without a round in the chamber, therefore, I don't think I'll do it.

Thanks for all the input, guys.
I appreciate your openness and civility. It doesn't seem to be all that common these days.

And you're right - mechanical things always can fail. This is the reason that I never fully trust manually safeties on cocked, or even partially cocked guns (hammer or striker) But I'll point out that if a de-cocked hammer on a DA/SA "fails," it isn't going to fail by somehow cocking itself, and then subesquently firing the gun. It just doesn't work that way.
 

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I want to try appendix carry now that it is all the rage, but I can’t get past the fact that you explicitly violate one of the four safety pillars in a major way! So help me understand: Why is it ok to point a gun at yourself when appendix carrying???
It's a good question, but answer me this. Why is it okay to point your weapon at someone behind you when shoulder carrying? Or why is it okay to walk on the second floor of your house when people might be downstairs right below you? What if you had to draw your weapon in similar circumstances (e.g. shoulder carry)? The truth is that it's complicated.

One consideration is that when our weapon is holstered appendix, shoulder carry, four thirty etc., the gun is pointing in a direction but YOU are not pointing it. That seems to resolve the issue until you draw your weapon where a lot of the problems occur with an undisciplined trigger finger (or when we're flying on autopilot and prone to making unordinary mistakes). I sometimes use the example of a young man who drew his pistol at the range, shot himself in the femoral artery, and died out while being medevaced from the range. Many others have shot themselves by merely holstering their weapons. I saw one county sheriff or police chief on YouTube (I forget wich) shoot himself in his leg blind holstering his service weapon somewhere at the 3-4:30 position carrying OWB. You can't always avoid the gun being pointed, or you may point it inadvertently (drawing or holstering a weapon under stress); the most you can do is holster it first and put it on, but when training or using your gun in a real life situation you go back to pointing it at yourself or others drawing or holstering your weapon (e.g. especially shoulder carry). In fact, one police officer shot the woman he was dancing with while he was carrying shoulder carry. The details of what happened after the initial report weren't forthcoming from what I remember, but the gun was holstered when it went off and killed his dance partner.

This is why I am a proponent of DA/SA or SAO (clocked and locked), or DAO (if you can fire it fast and accurately). I do have striker-fired carry guns, but I prefer DA/SA for this reason. Yes, you can defeat even a 16 lb. trigger with a sympathetic response in worst-case scenario situations, but most sympathetic responses are mitigated with even a much lighter trigger (even ones as light as 6.5-7 lbs. due to the long trigger travel. Striker-fired guns usually have an even lighter trigger and shorter pre travel which is why we occasionally see "Glock leg". This is relatively rare but not unusual, but the important thing in my mind is that I have NEVER heard of a case of Glock leg (or Glock crotch) occur with anything other than a striker-fired pistol. I'm sure someone managed to have this happen with the other safer carry options I've mentioned it, but after researching dozens & dozens of accidents over the years (perhaps more), every one was a striker-fired pistol (unless the details were not available). Never once did I here of P226/P229 or Beretta M9/92 pistols, for example, going off upon being holstered (or even 1911's for that matter). Again, knowing how people are, someone must have done it with one of them at some point, but I just never heard of it which makes DA/SA et al. a safer option in my opinion. I do carry one of my striker-fired pistols AIWB, but it has a manual safety (a Shield). I engage the safety, holster it, then disengage the safety while it is riding in the holster. But most of the time I'm taking it off and putting it back on while it's in the holster anyway. Doing this with a DA/SA is even better in my opinion because there is no safety to worry about but that's just me; plenty of people love to carry cocked and locked, and either is preferable to carrying striker-fired pistols appendix without utilizing a manual safety in my opinion. For training purposes and in the even of having to draw and holster a gun, even a manual safety on a striker-fired pistol is a greater risk than DA/SA or DAO in my opinion.

There are also benefits to appendix carry. Although people debate it, some claim it is faster (and I am one of them). But MORE importantly, it keeps your firearm in front of you which is easier to prevent someone else getting hold of it (which makes appendix in this regard SAFER). It also makes it easier to carry a bigger gun (which are easier to shoot and be accurate with which is again SAFER). But most of all, I think DA/SA is reasonably safe carried appendix compared to striker-fired guns being carried the same way. We hear from firearms instructors all the time that it is perfectly safe to appendix carry a Glock, for example, but remember these guys train others for a living. Day in and day out they are putting rounds down range and building so much more muscle memory along the way that they mitigate the risk much more than 99.9% of us, including LEO's, who don't handle their weapons and train nearly as much. This is a flaw trainers have about safety because they assume everyone else is going to train like they do, but it's a given someone doing it for a living is going to do these things much more frequently than anyone other than competitive shooters. These two groups, therefore in my opinion, tend to have an unhealthy bias in favor of mitigating risks through training that won't truly apply to most of us.

I'm sure if you asked virtually anyone who shot themselves in the leg (beyond a superficial wound anyway) whether it was worth it, they would say "no". One police officer was quoted in the news as saying his doctor couldn't tell him if he was going to keep his leg for days after his pistol went off while seated in his cruiser with three other officers. He wasn't even aware it was his gun that went off at first. Apparently the draw string from his jacket found its way into his holster when he last holstered his weapon, and to make matters worse, his seatbelt also snagged the draw string. When the four police officers arrived at their destination, and the officer who was driving unfastened his seat belt, as soon as he tried to get up the string caught on the seat belt pulled the trigger and he almost lost his leg. This was with a Glock chambered in .40 S&W (presumably a G22). We could argue that would have been enough to defeat a 10-12 lb. trigger, but we can also argue that he very well may have felt the tug first and stopped to check. Again, I've never heard of a DA/SA gun go off like this. That said, I do install a foam wedge on all my appendix holsters to help point it away from my junk (see pic). The wedge also makes it more comfortable when seated. There is no way for it to prevent the muzzle from pointing someplace you don't want it to 100% of the time, but it's better than not having it in my opinion.

Draw strings, I should note, are a VERY common cause for unintentional discharges (perhaps the most, but don't hold me to that). I'm calling them "unintentional" rather than negligent discharges because, although I would hope people's training would warn them about draw strings in particular, I know my training initially did not, nor have I ever read a pistol manual warning of draw strings specifically, but this was also the reason why the sheriff shot himself as well (and many other cases I could mention). Some say cut them off, but that can't prevent everything. Neither can DA/SA, DAO or a manual safety, but they are still much safer in my opinion.

In conclusion, I think the benefits of appendix carry outway the detriments if you're using a DA/SA or DAO pistol especially, but I agree it is relatively unsafe carrying a striker-fired pistol appendix, even with a safety (all things considered). Also remember that, while shooting yourself in the *** is preferable to hitting your crotch area or inner thigh, people carrying at the typical 2:30-5 o'clock positions have also managed to get bullets into their legs in ways that can be life threatening, so there is always a degree of risk, especially if the gun fails as was infamously the case with at least the first SIG P320's. I love SIG classic P-series pistols, but I am not a fan of striker-fired handguns for this reason. My only striker-fired carry guns these days are small ones that I use because they're not usually available in this size using a DA-SA action.

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Just demonstrating that emotional arguments have no basis. Swapping the subject of your argument didn’t change anything that you were saying. I could have substituted “swimming pools” and “swimming pool owners” just as easily.
What’s so emotional about it? There’s no intention of emotion at all so I don’t know here you’re getting that from.

Anger is a sign that your logical side is too conflicted to decide between two points, thereby handing the decision to the emotional side by default. You’re welcome to have an opinion, even a wrong one. Just stop getting surprised that you’re going to get called out for it. Or come back with data backing your claim.
You’re so full of yourself, aren’t you? Again, this has nothing to do with emotion and fact of getting creamed on the highway from someone changing lanes while not realizing the foolishness of motorcycle riders riding down the zipper between two rows of moving cars. This isn’t about the sitting stationary part anymore. You’ve established that but that’s all you’re blathering about.

And who says my “opinion” is wrong? You? A motorcycle rider?....lol. Hmm. Can’t say that I’m surprised on that one. And of course you’re gonna “call me out on it” because you foolishly think it’s ok to turn the dotted line into a third lane but hey, don’t listen to me, I’m not the one in danger.

Like I said before, even if you DO manage to pin the blame on someone for not seeing you slicing between moving cars, you’re still gonna fair a lot worse than they are so again, argue with my point of view all you want an what difference does it make if I cite data that supports my opinion? You’d just argue with it and dismiss it anyways.


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I tried appendix carry for....oh...five or ten seconds....tops. If you have a bit of a belly like I do, it pushes the handle of the gun out, and the barrel in. Having the bottom of the kidex holster jab me constantly somewhere between the crotch and that leg/torso crease was just too uncomfortable. Sitting was just that much worse. Nope. Not for me.

I'm perfectly comfortable IWB at 4:30 with the P365 snug in my Crossbreed MiniTuck. I often forget it's even there.
I’ve never tried it and I’m not about to invest money into a method of carry that I know isn’t going to work so that’s why I just stick to pocket carry. I even tried OWB and IWB carry with several different good gun belts but my problem is having to have the belt tight enough to hold everything up.


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What’s so emotional about it? There’s no intention of emotion at all so I don’t know here you’re getting that from.


You’re so full of yourself, aren’t you? Again, this has nothing to do with emotion and fact of getting creamed on the highway from someone changing lanes while not realizing the foolishness of motorcycle riders riding down the zipper between two rows of moving cars. This isn’t about the sitting stationary part anymore. You’ve established that but that’s all you’re blathering about.

And who says my “opinion” is wrong? You? A motorcycle rider?....lol. Hmm. Can’t say that I’m surprised on that one. And of course you’re gonna “call me out on it” because you foolishly think it’s ok to turn the dotted line into a third lane but hey, don’t listen to me, I’m not the one in danger.

Like I said before, even if you DO manage to pin the blame on someone for not seeing you slicing between moving cars, you’re still gonna fair a lot worse than they are so again, argue with my point of view all you want an what difference does it make if I cite data that supports my opinion? You’d just argue with it and dismiss it anyways.


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Statistics and multiple studies say that you are wrong. Whether traffic is moving or stationary, statistics and multiple studies show that lane sharing/splitting is safer for the motorcyclist and helps traffic to flow faster.

Something for you to read. The End of The Lane Splitting Debate
 

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Statistics and multiple studies say that you are wrong. Whether traffic is moving or stationary, statistics and multiple studies show that lane sharing/splitting is safer for the motorcyclist and helps traffic to flow faster.

Something for you to read. The End of The Lane Splitting Debate



Whatever, man. I’m not the one at risk. Have a good day.


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Whatever, man. I’m not the one at risk. Have a good day.


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I cite stats, you cite ambulance chasers.

They can’t show accidents, just near misses. Mine show accidents and fatalities rates for lane splitting vs not lane splitting.

We are all at risk, that’s what life is. But I’m at less risk by splitting lanes. Numbers don’t lie. But lawyers do.

Have a great evening!
 

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if I was on a motorcycle
I ride motorcycles. I roadraced them for about eight years. (When I was 'young' enough).
I've carried and shot guns for almost as long as I've ridden motorcycles, and I'm old-ish now.
If you ride bikes long enough you sort of 'get' the dynamics of the whole riding and the danger that automobiles present. If you haven't ridden bikes very much you can not understand said dangers.
It is as simple as that. ^
I know appendix carry is safe enough when done correctly. It doesn't work for me is all. I carry strong side OWB because that is what works for me. My experience with motorcycles and firearms makes my opinion on both actually more that just opinion. It is knowledge...

Locke
 

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I cite stats, you cite ambulance chasers.

They can’t show accidents, just near misses. Mine show accidents and fatalities rates for lane splitting vs not lane splitting.

We are all at risk, that’s what life is. But I’m at less risk by splitting lanes. Numbers don’t lie. But lawyers do.

Have a great evening!
See what I mean? Doesn’t matter what I posted or what I say, you’re just gonna relentlessly argue with it anyway because you just have it in your head that racing down the zipper between two cars it’s totally safe so you’re not gonna listen to anything I post and that’s OK. I’ve seen a lot of accidents where the motorcycle lost from doing that so you just believe whatever you want and hopefully you won’t become part of that statistic.

But sure, only talk about the part about sitting in traffic and hoping somebody doesn’t run in to the back of you.....that’s not what this is entirely about.

And I’ve seen the accidents that I’m talking about. And sure, lawyers may lie but that’s not the point. They still cite some really good reasons on why this stuff is stupid and why it shouldn’t be allowed except for extreme circumstances maybe when the traffic is stopped or less than say 20 miles an hour but keep arguing. I’m not the one at risk here. The only thing I’m gonna be at risk of is getting a scratch fixed on the side of my vehicle if somebody like you just comes screamin’ out of nowhere behind me and runs into me.

But there’s no need to keep this up.


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I ride motorcycles. I roadraced them for about eight years. (When I was 'young' enough).
I've carried and shot guns for almost as long as I've ridden motorcycles, and I'm old-ish now.
If you ride bikes long enough you sort of 'get' the dynamics of the whole riding and the danger that automobiles present. If you haven't ridden bikes very much you can not understand said dangers.
It is as simple as that. ^
I know appendix carry is safe enough when done correctly. It doesn't work for me is all. I carry strong side OWB because that is what works for me. My experience with motorcycles and firearms makes my opinion on both actually more that just opinion. It is knowledge...

Locke
What does all that have to do with if I was a motorcycle rider?

I may not ride bikes but I’ve sure cleaned up the aftermath after a lot of motorcycle related accidents to know a thing or two that you and your buddy are refusing to give me any sort of credit over but just like I told him, that’s OK.


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See what I mean? Doesn’t matter what I posted or what I say, you’re just gonna relentlessly argue with it anyway because you just have it in your head that racing down the zipper between two cars it’s totally safe so you’re not gonna listen to anything I post and that’s OK. I’ve seen a lot of accidents where the motorcycle lost from doing that so you just believe whatever you want and hopefully you won’t become part of that statistic.

But sure, only talk about the part about sitting in traffic and hoping somebody doesn’t run in to the back of you.....that’s not what this is entirely about.

And I’ve seen the accidents that I’m talking about. And sure, lawyers may lie but that’s not the point. They still cite some really good reasons on why this stuff is stupid and why it shouldn’t be allowed except for extreme circumstances maybe when the traffic is stopped or less than say 20 miles an hour but keep arguing. I’m not the one at risk here. The only thing I’m gonna be at risk of is getting a scratch fixed on the side of my vehicle if somebody like you just comes screamin’ out of nowhere behind me and runs into me.

But there’s no need to keep this up.
I'm talking about lawful and safe motorcycle practices that make riders safer and help traffic flow faster. You've focused on the actions of crazy people with motorcycles. This is why the gun control comparison is accurate.

When I talk about gun ownership, I'm talking about the lawful and safe firearm practices that make the owners and communities safer. Democrats focus on the actions of crazy people with guns.

In both cases, the people having an emotional reaction to the behaviors of crazy people refuse to acknowledge the data and statistics that show that the lawful and safe practices are better for society than an outright ban.

We like to think that we are smarter than the people trying to ban guns. Really we are all emotionally blinded in some way, generally by our experiences or lack of experience.


Back on topic, someday I hope to be skinny enough to try AIWB without having a stomach in the way.
 

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Holy cow. I'm a bigger man and take more risks than all of you. I turn on the fan AFTER I finish going to the bathroom!!! TG
 

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I'm talking about lawful and safe motorcycle practices that make riders safer and help traffic flow faster. You've focused on the actions of crazy people with motorcycles. This is why the gun control comparison is accurate.

When I talk about gun ownership, I'm talking about the lawful and safe firearm practices that make the owners and communities safer. Democrats focus on the actions of crazy people with guns.

In both cases, the people having an emotional reaction to the behaviors of crazy people refuse to acknowledge the data and statistics that show that the lawful and safe practices are better for society than an outright ban.

We like to think that we are smarter than the people trying to ban guns. Really we are all emotionally blinded in some way, generally by our experiences or lack of experience.


Back on topic, someday I hope to be skinny enough to try AIWB without having a stomach in the way.
Well, first and foremost, the last time I checked, gun rights are protected constitutional rights; lane-splitting is not so now that that’s out of the way, you can’t just focus on the rare amount of respectable motorcycle riders and turn a blind eye to the idiots ones. I’m not saying you are either as I’m not just talking about you, I’m talking about all, and especially the ones who give motorcycle riders in general, a bad name. So what if you ride safely, because so many of them don’t. If they all rode as safe as you claim to do then it wouldn’t matter, and there would be no reason for us to even be having this conversation.

And you’re right, in some ways this is kind of like how the Dems and the Libs view gun ownership but even though it’s kind of the same concept, it’s not the same thing therefore your assumption to gun control comparison is inaccurate.




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Guns are inherently "dangerous", just like edged weapons/tools. Every mode of their on-person carry has trade-offs, based on the individual's assessment of the advantages vs. risks. AIWB carry discussions tend to bring out the emotions, critics bleating about how the muzzle is pointing at "vital" organs/arteries, etc. Some critics carry SOB, which has its own safety concerns, others are going to try, or are carrying in, a shoulder holster, which also poses risk to the wearer, as well as bystanders - especially if one is wearing a "horizontal" shoulder rig, which points the muzzle at everyone that passes by behind the wearer. Cross-draw presents its own set of problems, too.

AIWB is fast. With proper training, it is safe. The maxim, "Draw quickly, but holster Reluctantly" holds especially true. YMMV.
 

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you can’t just focus on the rare amount of respectable gun owners and turn a blind eye to the idiots ones. I’m not saying you are either as I’m not just talking about you, I’m talking about all, and especially the ones who give gun owners in general, a bad name. So what if you carry safely, because so many of them don’t. If they all carry as safe as you claim to do then it wouldn’t matter, and there would be no reason for us to even be having this conversation.
Yup, the search and replace doesn't change the basis of your argument. You have an emotional response to lane splitting and push for banning it for everyone. Would an amendment in the constitution change your position at all?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to share and split Lanes, shall not be infringed.

Or would you argue that only militia members would be allowed to split lanes? Or people with psychological evaluations, background checks, and significant training?
 
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