[Steve40th]

So, I have been to one of these KIOSKS in SC. Do I get to leave same day with can? Seems like they are doing a good job alleviating the pain involved in getting a can..
I need this dumbed down a little to see what I have to do when I get home next week..
I want a can and just cant seem to find one I want, and or want to wait 6-12 months for ATF to approve it.

 

[7.62Kolectr]

So, I have been to one of these KIOSKS in SC. Do I get to leave same day with can? Seems like they are doing a good job alleviating the pain involved in getting a can..
I need this dumbed down a little to see what I have to do when I get home next week..
I want a can and just cant seem to find one I want, and or want to wait 6-12 months for ATF to approve it.

No.
The intitial purchaser which in this case would be you still has to wait the time that it takes to get the stamp.
The can upon approval would be in the 'single shot trust'. Should you decide to sell it then the person you sell it to can take it home that day without waiting the addtl time for the transfer to be approved. Initially it is no better than anything else. But what you will begin to see down the road is cans in stores attached to these 'single shot trusts' that you can cash and carry home that day. Silencer Shop has created a way for dealers to have 20 cans in 20 trusts. Eventually dealers will have inventory that you can buy and take home that day. You will of course still have to pay the $200 because the dealer initially paid it and will want to recover it.
So I can see a time about a year from now when there will be many dealers with many items in stock that you can pick from and buy that day and go home with.
They will sell you the trust. In purchasing the trust all assets of the trust will go with it. No wait time for that. It really is a brilliant way to get around the long wait.

 

[PatFranklin]

Clever.

 

[Steve40th]

Clever.

I agree, should have been done years ago.

 

[wetwrks]

This will go badly. It involves a process to transfer a restricted item without going thru the transfer process. The ATF has previously declared it illegal to try an bypass paying the transfer tax. This does that exactly.

 

[Malicious Compliance]

This will go badly. It involves a process to transfer a restricted item without going thru the transfer process. The ATF has previously declared it illegal to try an bypass paying the transfer tax. This does that exactly.

Nowhere in the OP do I see anything that would lead me to believe the $200 is not required nor avoiding the transfer process. This is merely a convenient way to expedite the signatures of all parties to the trust.

 

[ptrthgr8]

Nowhere in the OP do I see anything that would lead me to believe the $200 is not required nor avoiding the transfer process. This is merely a convenient way to expedite the signatures of all parties to the trust.

I think that all depends upon who's in charge of the BATFE (and IRS?) when and if an issue comes up. I'll agree the whole thing seems a little hinky to me, particularly since Silencer Shop makes buying a suppressor as an individual so easy to begin with.

Last month I bought a YHM-4000 integrally suppressed .22 barrel from their website. Filled out all of the NFA paperwork and uploaded a photo online (took maybe 5 mins) and then I visited one of their SID Kiosks to scan my fingerprints. That part took maybe 20 mins. But then all of my info was saved. Then last week I bought a Surefire 9Ti 9mm can from their site and all of the previously saved/submitted info was used for this purchase - so I spent literally zero time submitting any of the NFA paperwork for the second purchase since nothing had changed since the first time around. (Now it's just a matter of waiting for the Form 3 and Form 4 approvals to go through.)

So, I'm all for making the NFA transfer process as easy as possible (and, for the record, I think the whole NFA thing is unconstitutional to begin with), but I'm not sure about this single shot plan. But then again, Silencer Shop isn't exactly run by a bunch of noobs, so I'm sure their lawyers have scoured everything to make sure things are good to go. But I'd still be concerned about a the potential for changes in the wind depending upon whose running Washington.

~ Greg ~

 

[7.62Kolectr]

This will go badly. It involves a process to transfer a restricted item without going thru the transfer process. The ATF has previously declared it illegal to try an bypass paying the transfer tax. This does that exactly.

Go back and read my posts.

Nowhere in the OP do I see anything that would lead me to believe the $200 is not required nor avoiding the transfer process. This is merely a convenient way to expedite the signatures of all parties to the trust.

Correct. The intial dealer/buyer still pays the $200 and WAITS for the approval to come back. There is no bypassing anything. What it does do is create a single trust for each single item. Once the approval is done, approved and stamp received the Trust can be sold and all assets which in this case will be only one item can be sold that day and walked out with at the same time. The seller will be selling the trust not the NFA item. The item will be at that time an asset of the trust. No transfer or forms needed. Just cash and carry.
So like I said down the road you will walk into a store and there will be numerous items already stamped and in trusts which one can buy and walk out with at the time.

 

[waltersvest]

Bravo! I think the more stuff like this that gums up the ATF with trying to make new rules and interpretations can only help. Sounds counter intuitive I know. The ATF has already said they want to loosen restrictions (http://wapo.st/2kKSnj3?tid=ss_mail). Over whelm them with the governance of the silly rules they try to make and enforce and maybe they will see the futility. I'm glad to see it. Just like the flood of trust submissions when they changed the ATF 41F. I say keep it up.

 

[wetwrks]

The intial dealer/buyer still pays the $200 and WAITS for the approval to come back. There is no bypassing anything.

So like I said down the road you will walk into a store and there will be numerous items already stamped and in trusts which one can buy and walk out with at the time.

Those 2 statements contradict each other. Are you walking in, buying, and walking out with the item or do you have to wait for the background check and transfer? If you have to wait for the bgc and transfer then it is not happening that day...unless the purpose of this is to avoid the bgc and transfer. Then it is being used to avoid the transfer fee as well.

 

[ptrthgr8]

Those 2 statements contradict each other. Are you walking in, buying, and walking out with the item or do you have to wait for the background check and transfer? If you have to wait for the bgc and transfer then it is not happening that day...unless the purpose of this is to avoid the bgc and transfer. Then it is being used to avoid the transfer fee as well.

The trust is the legal entity that performed the NFA background check, so if a new owner acquires the legal entity that already completed an NFA transfer background check, there is no need for the new owner of the trust to complete another background check. Trusts are legal entities. The legal entity associated with the suppressor in question does not change.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S7 Edge

 

[wetwrks]

The trust is the legal entity that performed the NFA background check, so if a new owner acquires the legal entity that already completed an NFA transfer background check, there is no need for the new owner of the trust to complete another background check. Trusts are legal entities. The legal entity associated with the suppressor in question does not change.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S7 Edge

The "new owner" being the key to your statement. There is a "new owner" of the trust and its holdings. Whenever there is a "new owner" of a nfa item (the trusts holdings) there is a required bgc and transfer fee. You cannot get around that by transferring ownership of the trust.

Moreover...now every member of a trust has to submit fingerprint cards and have a bgc done now. Part of the new changes to trusts. Thus...as the new owner of the trust you have to be added to it...along with the filing of finger print cards...and bgc. Which cannot be done by walking in, buying the trust, and walking out with the restricted item.

 

[ptrthgr8]

The "new owner" being the key to your statement. There is a "new owner" of the trust and its holdings. Whenever there is a "new owner" of a nfa item (the trusts holdings) there is a required bgc and transfer fee. You cannot get around that by transferring ownership of the trust.

No, I don't think you're understanding the distinction between the trust and the owner, as two separate legal entities.. The trust is the legal entity that owns the suppressor. Another entity owns the trust. The owner of the suppressor - the trust - doesn't change. Only the owner of the trust is changing. I totally get how it allegedly works out from a legal standpoint (the trust is one legal entity, the owner of the trust is a separate legal entity), but I agree it's clearly trying to get around the spirit of the law (as stupid as it is to begin with).

Moreover...now every member of a trust has to submit fingerprint cards and have a bgc done now. Part of the new changes to trusts. Thus...as the new owner of the trust you have to be added to it...along with the filing of finger print cards...and bgc. Which cannot be done by walking in, buying the trust, and walking out with the restricted item.

If I understand it correctly, the point of the single shot trust is to make it easier for, say, a dealer, to have a tax-stamped suppressor in the shop, then someone else comes in and buys the trust (along with its assets), and Silencer Shop makes it über easy to electronically file the trust's new owner's info into their system using their SID kiosks - fingerprints and all - so the filing of the new RP info can be done on the spot. This single shot trust apparently only works with Silencer Shop Powered dealers who have the kiosks onsite. At least that's what I've taken away from it?

So, while I totally get the legalese nuances that supposedly make this process easy and on the up-and-up... I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the test case if the federales ever wanted to prosecute someone.

 

[wetwrks]

If this isn't an attempt to avoid paying the transfer tax and doing the background check to transfer the suppressor then what is the advantage of this?

Any transfer of ownership...be it as an item by itself or be it as an item possessed by an additionally transferred trust will still need a background check...which will take the same amount of time either way.

As stated elsewhere: (Fleming v. US), engaging in an activity solely for the purpose of not paying transfer taxes on an NFA item at a subsequent transfer has been successfully prosecuted as tax evasion by the ATF - even if the mechanism used to do so was otherwise legal.

Transferring possession of an NFA item...via essentially shell corporations...will still be seen by the ATF as a transfer of an NFA item.

 

[ptrthgr8]

Oh, I don't disagree that's the whole intent is to get around some of the more egregious hassles associated with NFA ownership. However, they're doing a legal tango that keeps them on the up and up. Silencer Shop has been in this business for a long time, so it would be wrong to assume their legal counsel hasn't hashed this over and over and over to make it jibe with the current interpretation of NFA law. But that's where I think it gets hinky... just because the powers that be agree with Silencer Shop today doesn't mean the next ATF director will see things the same way.

Doing transfers as an individual isn't that difficult and it's clearly the most straight forward process from a legal perspective. And if the HPA passes it all becomes a moot point anyhow.

Cheers,

Greg


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S7 Edge

 

[7.62Kolectr]

If this isn't an attempt to avoid paying the transfer tax and doing the background check to transfer the suppressor then what is the advantage of this?

Any transfer of ownership...be it as an item by itself or be it as an item possessed by an additionally transferred trust will still need a background check...which will take the same amount of time either way.

As stated elsewhere: (Fleming v. US), engaging in an activity solely for the purpose of not paying transfer taxes on an NFA item at a subsequent transfer has been successfully prosecuted as tax evasion by the ATF - even if the mechanism used to do so was otherwise legal.

Transferring possession of an NFA item...via essentially shell corporations...will still be seen by the ATF as a transfer of an NFA item.

The tansfer tax will be paid by the intial purchaser or dealer. They will wait what is now 9 months to get the stamp. Then they will have the trust with the stamped item in it. One trust, one stamp and one item. You will buy the trust. In buying a trust all assets of the trust go with it. You aren't transferring anything. It does seem like a play on words and a get around. But as already mentioned I'm sure Silencer Shop which is the largest suppressor store in the USA has already looked at all angles, consulted with their legal counsel, most likely already run it by atf and has now come up with a new brilliant idea.

My question is that they certainly can't patent it or prevent somebody else from crafting single item trusts. So eventually we should see stores and dealers at gun shows all over with items that are already stamped and ready to go home with you that day. I'd like to see the language in their single shot trust. It would be an interesting read.

 

[wetwrks]

The tansfer tax will be paid by the intial purchaser or dealer. They will wait what is now 9 months to get the stamp. Then they will have the trust with the stamped item in it. One trust, one stamp and one item. You will buy the trust. In buying a trust all assets of the trust go with it. You aren't transferring anything. It does seem like a play on words and a get around. But as already mentioned I'm sure Silencer Shop which is the largest suppressor store in the USA has already looked at all angles, consulted with their legal counsel, most likely already run it by atf and has now come up with a new brilliant idea.

My question is that they certainly can't patent it or prevent somebody else from crafting single item trusts. So eventually we should see stores and dealers at gun shows all over with items that are already stamped and ready to go home with you that day. I'd like to see the language in their single shot trust. It would be an interesting read.

Ownership of the trust...and its assets are changing hands. This is a shell corporation way of transferring ownership of an NFA item. The ATF will crack down on it.

Ever hear of the Akins Accelerator?