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Shot Show 2015 – P320, X5s, 1911s, Sig Gunsmiths, MIM Improvement, Boberg .45 Super,

5K views 20 replies 13 participants last post by  awedtone 
#1 · (Edited)
Shot Show at the Sands has come and gone for 2015 - well except for the continued ordering and months of follow-up contacts. I have become the co-owner of a firearms company in Texas that many of you know here, TheSigArmorer.com. So, Shot Show has become a new fixture in my life. What follows are some random observations of various products and discussions that I do not believe have been covered by other posters here or elsewhere.

The Las Vegas strip foretold the sensory overload that awaited us at the Sands Convention Center.
The show is huge, covering something close to 14 acres with over 60,000 visitors. One person in our group had a pedometer that logged 9 miles of walking on one day alone. And, after 4 days, we still did not get to every booth. What follows are some observations that we hope you will find interesting.

P320 NEWS
This year, it seemed that Sig had a few offerings that caused a lot of stir. Certainly the new P320 is part of that. And, the vaunted P220 10mm soul crusher was also on prominent display. For our part, we were pleased to deliver more of our P320 work to Max Michel.


On Sig Range Day, Max demonstrated his skills using our P320 action work in this video. It is definitely the Indian in this video. Our work is a very small part indeed. The same thing can be said of Mickey Fowler's <1" group shown farther below.
https://www.facebook.com/video...?v=10152661548432939 from Laurence Gurule.

We are still working on some further P320 improvements but it was gratifying to see Max displaying our existing work with his friendly, competent style. Spending time with Max at various times over the days of Shot was a true pleasure as he lives the ambassadorial spirit that represents all gun owners in a very positive way.

SIG GUNSMITH DISCUSSIONS
On the first day of Shot, we arrived for some early appointments at Sig so we had the chance to talk before the throngs descended. Here is Robert (TheSigAmorer in SigTalk) speaking with Sean Toner, Sig's Senior Design Engineer for the P320.
I snapped this picture as Sig’s Senior Custom Shop gunsmith overheard and joined the conversation. It was interesting to hear them discuss the P320 as Robert praised the platform while suggesting some things for a competition version that Sig on their own specs and, perhaps, blended specs may have on the horizon soon. Indeed, Sig even made some custom prototypes for our trials on Max’s P320s. So, we believe there is a lot of experimentation underway. It is great that Sig has opened itself to outside gunsmiths making suggestions and offering prototypes themselves to see the P320 rise to the top of the striker-fired heap.

For my part, I spent a lot of time with Sig’s top Custom Shop Gunsmith, Al Larochelle. He was a wealth of information and one of the easiest people you could imagine speaking with. I learned many things while finding out that he physically inspects each X5 that makes it to the United States. He is also best friends with the two X5 designers in Germany. He assured me that he will continue to oversee the X5 and that Sig listens to his suggestions and evaluations. So, as production moves to the United States, there appears to be very knowledgeable and experienced leadership running the transition and new production uptake.

I have purchased quite a few X5s and our sponsored competitive shooters have invested themselves in producing world class results with the X5s and other Sigs. Consequently, it is important for us to know what the future may portend. Our competitive shooting team coach, Mickey Fowler, recently shot less than a one inch group at 50 yards on irons with a stock X5 Entry after TheSigArmorer completed some barrel fitting and action work.
Frankly, Mickey outshot the test target that came with the pistol by quite a bit. He only shot 4 here because that was all that was in the new magazine before we walked down to look. So, the new X5, even at the Entry level, has a lot of potential.


One noteworthy discovery was information about X5 parts. Some say the X5 Entry and the new Match X5s have the same MIM parts. Well, they do not. According to Al Larochelle, the Entry and the Match versions both have a bar stock trigger bar but the hammer in the Entry is MIM. The match versions have different bar stock parts, including the hammer and sear to accomplish the adjustable trigger. Having tried them both, the bar stock seems to produce a more refined feel. Even so, the MIM is very good as evidenced by Mickey’s group. But, over time, it is unclear how the MIM parts will hold the gunsmithing work. We had one issue already because we believe an MIM hammer did not hold the ultra-fine fitting created for some X5 Entry competition tolerance testing. But, that was for some ultra testing, not for a customer.

SIG MIM PARTS
I also interviewed a representative of INDO-MIM, the company that stated to me that it makes Sig’s MIM parts in India. I discovered that the company can produce more dense MIM parts than what are delivered to Sig today.
Now, whether this is desirable or not is another question. But, the density of the current MIM parts is, perhaps, if I understood correctly, 10 to 20% less than the manufacturer’s full capability. The MIM company stated that they could increase the existing parts density to about 99% for about 15-20% more in price per piece. Again, I do not know how that might translate into a better trigger feel or function but it was interesting. I know that others are moving to produce bar stock parts for Sigs and we have our own versions of bar stock parts underway. Hopefully, each company will find a niche and make new offerings available in the marketplace without unduly overlapping. In the meantime, I’m still interested in what advantage may be gained by improving the density of existing MIM production runs. We are certainly interested in our action work holding shape and form for as long as possible for our customers while ensuring the best possible feel.

The thread size limitation means that I will post this review in sections to follow, perhaps. Other topics include the Boberg, Steyr, Faxon, Houlding and a new AR trigger group plus pics of some of the Sig 1911 and X series pistols on display.

FINAL THOUGHTS
Well, there is so much to report but I hope this contribution gives you a sense of some things from our experience at Shot. There are product lines we added and so many things we learned in the process. What an enormous undertaking by the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF). Anyone who was there could certainly commend the NSSF for hosting, supporting and feeding perhaps 70,000 exhibitors, participants, workers and buyers for so many days.
 
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Discussion starter · #13 ·
Thanks for your kind words.

Hello all and thank you for your kind words. We are going to try to contribute to this and a few other sites. I tried to discuss things that may not have been readily available from Shot Show.

Although we are an independent company and do not speak for Sig, we like Sigs and hope that they only get better and better. After reading here for years, I can see that this is a place that gathers those of us who appreciate the brand. We are interested in other brands too.

I would like to respond to the latest post here . . .

banger,

I am not a metallurgist. So, I am not sure that making the parts more dense would actually be an improvement. I have collected some folded steel Japanese blades, for instance, and the balance between softer flexibility and hardness is the key to durability in that arena.

For me, I have a P226 that has about 20,000 rounds on it with an MIM hammer. But, at about 7,000 rounds it was found to have some stress fractures that had to be micro-welded and surface planed. I am not sure whether a more dense part would have actually cracked instead due to brittleness. I do not know. But, I am not sure that a more dense MIM part would be better or that customers are cheated by the compromise between current MIM and a more dense MIM part. I would love to get an opinion from someone in that field who may have some empirical view.

I was asking several MIM companies at Shot because I was interested in our parts and investigating costs. It would cost us about $1,000.00 to run our own empirical tests. We may or may not do that.

I guess the good news is that at least with my P226, it has been hummin' along for years with regular maintenance, sticky grease, simple inspection and this one bit of micro repair. There may be some other things we will try with exising MIM parts and we hope to keep you posted. But, there is no denying the value of bar stock. EGW, SVI and so many others in the 1911 market have shown this to be true over and over again. The X5 bar stock parts have also shown their value. But, thousands and thousands of more modern MIM-parted Sigs have shown their reliable value, too.
 
Discussion starter · #15 · (Edited)
. . .
So, apparently when they subject customers to poorly designed and poorly produced parts, (IE: P-938 extractors that continue to break), this is NOT an accident.

. . . yet does not remain functional for more then a few hundred rounds at a time.
BTW, if you have a Sig that only works a few hundred rounds at a time, you may want to send it someone who works on them. There are a number of choices. If you are the owner, we repair with the factory warranty.

Just this week, I learned that Sig has put some more attention to a new production P938 and they actually improved it according to Robert's inspection. Sig also recently changed a perennial problem with the P238 from the production line that I saw when we took it down for the first time out of the box. Indeed, after some work from Robert, one of our sponsored shooters downed the Glock plates with my P238 in about a tenth over two seconds. Ill let you know if I have a problem with my P938.

The brand has good bones but a makeover in the right hands can generally make it better. Even Sig offers Action Enhancement Packages directly through the factory. Almost all brands could be made better with some gunsmithing. So, your loss of a "customer" "for life" decision may deprive you of improvements over time. There is a lot of improvement coming but it is not for us to announce in detail.

Robert will probably be along shortly to try to sort out some issues with yours if you are inclined to discuss it. The P938 extractor has been holding up well for our customers.
 
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Discussion starter · #20 ·
Can't Undo Experience

banger,

It's quite late in Texas so Robert will probably get back to you later. I'll leave suggestions to him. In the meantime, it is impossible to undo someone's experience. Your experience could be replaced with a good one but what has happened cannot be erased.

If it has been to Sig once, it may be something less obvious in that particular gun, cleaning or ammo too. If your experience was typical, I wouldn't like mine either.

But, there are those who like to fix things and like to try to understand what happened. If you'd like to know and fix it, Sig and others would probably help you get to the bottom of it.

As in my review, we had to refit the barrel on an X5 Entry and after Robert finished, it produced a less than one inch group at 50 yards on irons. It is possible to make things better with a further experience.

Send a letter to Sig with the pistol if your send it to them because I suspect Sig would want to know what is happening. When you decry Sig for not getting it right, You may wish to consider letting them know what is happening with yours. If there is something askew in your P938, it may benefit others to let the manufacturer diagnose and fix the issue for not just the benefit of yourself.
 
Discussion starter · #21 · (Edited)
The 938 extractor is a good example of the type of part that should not be made using MIM (small in cross-section and subjected to repeated impact).
--------------------- GeezerD
FWIW, I agree with your sentiment. For the overwhelming majority that do hold up for tens of thousands of rounds, it is a testament to the durability of MIM. banger's issue may indicate a combination of unusual forces.

Is the chamber too big in some way, allowing the case to expand? Is the pistol trapping grime that is tightening the chamber or some other area? The list may go on. But, a tougher extractor could, maybe, let the pistol work itself in more - perhaps. Or, maybe its a spring or ammo issue.

My P238 was so tight in its initial chamber that it caused loading failures until we ran about 200 rounds of ammo through it. Then it was right as rain. The 200 round trigger job, as they say, worked well before going at it with tools.

Here is what we got after trigger work and then letting it break in. This is just over 2 seconds on 6 plates. Sorry I missed the beginning but another camera got the whole run; I just haven't had time to bring the angles all together yet. Not real fast but it became ultra reliable after starting as a jam-o-matic. This is Logan and he holds the GSSF competition record of 1.62 seconds. Tight tolerances can loosen but loose ones can't tighten.
 
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