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Shot Show 2015 – P320, X5s, 1911s, Sig Gunsmiths, MIM Improvement, Boberg .45 Super,

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Shot Show at the Sands has come and gone for 2015 - well except for the continued ordering and months of follow-up contacts. I have become the co-owner of a firearms company in Texas that many of you know here, TheSigArmorer.com. So, Shot Show has become a new fixture in my life. What follows are some random observations of various products and discussions that I do not believe have been covered by other posters here or elsewhere.

The Las Vegas strip foretold the sensory overload that awaited us at the Sands Convention Center.
The show is huge, covering something close to 14 acres with over 60,000 visitors. One person in our group had a pedometer that logged 9 miles of walking on one day alone. And, after 4 days, we still did not get to every booth. What follows are some observations that we hope you will find interesting.

P320 NEWS
This year, it seemed that Sig had a few offerings that caused a lot of stir. Certainly the new P320 is part of that. And, the vaunted P220 10mm soul crusher was also on prominent display. For our part, we were pleased to deliver more of our P320 work to Max Michel.


On Sig Range Day, Max demonstrated his skills using our P320 action work in this video. It is definitely the Indian in this video. Our work is a very small part indeed. The same thing can be said of Mickey Fowler's <1" group shown farther below.
https://www.facebook.com/video...?v=10152661548432939 from Laurence Gurule.

We are still working on some further P320 improvements but it was gratifying to see Max displaying our existing work with his friendly, competent style. Spending time with Max at various times over the days of Shot was a true pleasure as he lives the ambassadorial spirit that represents all gun owners in a very positive way.

SIG GUNSMITH DISCUSSIONS
On the first day of Shot, we arrived for some early appointments at Sig so we had the chance to talk before the throngs descended. Here is Robert (TheSigAmorer in SigTalk) speaking with Sean Toner, Sig's Senior Design Engineer for the P320.
I snapped this picture as Sig’s Senior Custom Shop gunsmith overheard and joined the conversation. It was interesting to hear them discuss the P320 as Robert praised the platform while suggesting some things for a competition version that Sig on their own specs and, perhaps, blended specs may have on the horizon soon. Indeed, Sig even made some custom prototypes for our trials on Max’s P320s. So, we believe there is a lot of experimentation underway. It is great that Sig has opened itself to outside gunsmiths making suggestions and offering prototypes themselves to see the P320 rise to the top of the striker-fired heap.

For my part, I spent a lot of time with Sig’s top Custom Shop Gunsmith, Al Larochelle. He was a wealth of information and one of the easiest people you could imagine speaking with. I learned many things while finding out that he physically inspects each X5 that makes it to the United States. He is also best friends with the two X5 designers in Germany. He assured me that he will continue to oversee the X5 and that Sig listens to his suggestions and evaluations. So, as production moves to the United States, there appears to be very knowledgeable and experienced leadership running the transition and new production uptake.

I have purchased quite a few X5s and our sponsored competitive shooters have invested themselves in producing world class results with the X5s and other Sigs. Consequently, it is important for us to know what the future may portend. Our competitive shooting team coach, Mickey Fowler, recently shot less than a one inch group at 50 yards on irons with a stock X5 Entry after TheSigArmorer completed some barrel fitting and action work.
Frankly, Mickey outshot the test target that came with the pistol by quite a bit. He only shot 4 here because that was all that was in the new magazine before we walked down to look. So, the new X5, even at the Entry level, has a lot of potential.


One noteworthy discovery was information about X5 parts. Some say the X5 Entry and the new Match X5s have the same MIM parts. Well, they do not. According to Al Larochelle, the Entry and the Match versions both have a bar stock trigger bar but the hammer in the Entry is MIM. The match versions have different bar stock parts, including the hammer and sear to accomplish the adjustable trigger. Having tried them both, the bar stock seems to produce a more refined feel. Even so, the MIM is very good as evidenced by Mickey’s group. But, over time, it is unclear how the MIM parts will hold the gunsmithing work. We had one issue already because we believe an MIM hammer did not hold the ultra-fine fitting created for some X5 Entry competition tolerance testing. But, that was for some ultra testing, not for a customer.

SIG MIM PARTS
I also interviewed a representative of INDO-MIM, the company that stated to me that it makes Sig’s MIM parts in India. I discovered that the company can produce more dense MIM parts than what are delivered to Sig today.
Now, whether this is desirable or not is another question. But, the density of the current MIM parts is, perhaps, if I understood correctly, 10 to 20% less than the manufacturer’s full capability. The MIM company stated that they could increase the existing parts density to about 99% for about 15-20% more in price per piece. Again, I do not know how that might translate into a better trigger feel or function but it was interesting. I know that others are moving to produce bar stock parts for Sigs and we have our own versions of bar stock parts underway. Hopefully, each company will find a niche and make new offerings available in the marketplace without unduly overlapping. In the meantime, I’m still interested in what advantage may be gained by improving the density of existing MIM production runs. We are certainly interested in our action work holding shape and form for as long as possible for our customers while ensuring the best possible feel.

The thread size limitation means that I will post this review in sections to follow, perhaps. Other topics include the Boberg, Steyr, Faxon, Houlding and a new AR trigger group plus pics of some of the Sig 1911 and X series pistols on display.

FINAL THOUGHTS
Well, there is so much to report but I hope this contribution gives you a sense of some things from our experience at Shot. There are product lines we added and so many things we learned in the process. What an enormous undertaking by the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF). Anyone who was there could certainly commend the NSSF for hosting, supporting and feeding perhaps 70,000 exhibitors, participants, workers and buyers for so many days.
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Thanks for the thorough coverage. I'm about to go to a p320c, so I'm glad to hear there are upgrades on the way. Cheers!
"I know that others are moving to produce bar stock parts for Sigs and we have our own versions of bar stock parts underway. Hopefully, each company will find a niche and make new offerings available in the marketplace without unduly overlapping. In the meantime, I’m still interested in what advantage may be gained by improving the density of existing MIM production runs. We are certainly interested in our action work holding shape and form for as long as possible for our customers while ensuring the best possible feel."


It is very good to hear this news. I would prefer to pay more to get all bar stock parts up front. But, as long as there is a factory option to the MIM parts, I would be ok with that. --------------- GeezerD
welcome from az
Welcome from Alabama. Great post, thanks.
Welcome to the forum and thanks for your insights!

Please keep them coming.

Best of luck in your business venture.
Welcome and thanks for the information on the X5 line.
Hey, Welcome to Sig Talk, and huge Thank You for your SS report!! Loads of interest here on X5's availability, custom shop work, 320, etc.

Wish you much success with your new biz too!

Cheers
Wow! What a first time post!! Welcome!

I have a 320C and it's fantastic.

I have other handguns with MIM parts. So far all have been reliable. You interview and comments on it are very interesting. I certainly would like to hear more.
Welcome from PR.

Looking forward into sending my mk25 for some work.
Thank you for posting this on this forum.

I read it on the other Sig forum some number of days ago.

I suppose that those who read this post all take away something different.

For me, the touch stone moment is the information about the "MIM" parts.

The way I see it, is that we now have confirmed that Sig does not produce their own MIM's, and they spec the quality.

So, apparently when they subject customers to poorly designed and poorly produced parts, (IE: P-938 extractors that continue to break), this is NOT an accident.

It can only be viewed as a conscious decision to save the company a few pennies, and cost the consumer a disabled and untrustworthy pistol.

Actually, this increases my outrage of the way Sig is conducting business.

Sooo, an open note to Sig Sauer.

For goodness sakes guys...give us what we pay for!

It boggles my mind that I can pay nearly 1/2 the amount that Sig charges for its pistols, and buy a Smith and Wesson.

Half the price for a pistol that is trustworthy and durable, as compared to one that costs twice the amount yet does not remain functional for more then a few hundred rounds at a time.

I don't know how much longer you can ride the coat tails of your formerly excellent work, but speaking for myself...the clock is ticking.

One axiom I learned YEARS ago...lose a customer, and you lose him for life.
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Thank you for posting this on this forum.

I read it on the other Sig forum some number of days ago.

I suppose that those who read this post all take away something different.

For me, the touch stone moment is the information about the "MIM" parts.

The way I see it, is that we now have confirmed that Sig does not produce their own MIM's, and they spec the quality.

So, apparently when they subject customers to poorly designed and poorly produced parts, (IE: P-938 extractors that continue to break), this is NOT an accident.

It can only be viewed as a conscious decision to save the company a few pennies, and cost the consumer a disabled and untrustworthy pistol.

Actually, this increases my outrage of the way Sig is conducting business.

Sooo, an open note to Sig Sauer.

For goodness sakes guys...give us what we pay for!

It boggles my mind that I can pay nearly 1/2 the amount that Sig charges for its pistols, and buy a Smith and Wesson.

Half the price for a pistol that is trustworthy and durable, as compared to one that costs twice the amount yet does not remain functional for more then a few hundred rounds at a time.

I don't know how much longer you can ride the coat tails of your formerly excellent work, but speaking for myself...the clock is ticking.

One axiom I learned YEARS ago...lose a customer, and you lose him for life.

The exemplary reliable, performance provided by the SIGs I own and shoot regularly, strongly contradicts what you have posted.


P220 Super Match: going on 20,000 rounds without a single parts breakage or pistol malfunction.

P220 Carry Equinox: over 11,000 rounds without a single parts breakage or pistol malfunction.

P226 X-Five Competition 9mm: over 8,000 rounds without a single parts breakage or pistol malfunction.

X-Five Classic 9mm: over 7,000 rounds without a single parts breakage or pistol malfunction with the exception that this pistol will not extract Mag tech ammunition reliably, a problem I resolved by simply not shooting Mag tech in this pistol which has been otherwise 100% reliable.

1911 Super Target Nitron, purchased last November so a low round count to this point, but 750 rounds through this pistol without a single parts breakage or malfunction.



I'm a fan of S&W firearms, the majority of my guns are Smith and Wesson, I recommend them to my friends, and I have been buying them for roughly 45 years; but the pistols S&W produces these days, including those from The Performance Center, can't hold a candle to those SIG is currently turning out.

In the friendly spirit of this excellent forum I believe I should end my comments right here at this time.
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Thanks for your kind words.

Hello all and thank you for your kind words. We are going to try to contribute to this and a few other sites. I tried to discuss things that may not have been readily available from Shot Show.

Although we are an independent company and do not speak for Sig, we like Sigs and hope that they only get better and better. After reading here for years, I can see that this is a place that gathers those of us who appreciate the brand. We are interested in other brands too.

I would like to respond to the latest post here . . .

banger,

I am not a metallurgist. So, I am not sure that making the parts more dense would actually be an improvement. I have collected some folded steel Japanese blades, for instance, and the balance between softer flexibility and hardness is the key to durability in that arena.

For me, I have a P226 that has about 20,000 rounds on it with an MIM hammer. But, at about 7,000 rounds it was found to have some stress fractures that had to be micro-welded and surface planed. I am not sure whether a more dense part would have actually cracked instead due to brittleness. I do not know. But, I am not sure that a more dense MIM part would be better or that customers are cheated by the compromise between current MIM and a more dense MIM part. I would love to get an opinion from someone in that field who may have some empirical view.

I was asking several MIM companies at Shot because I was interested in our parts and investigating costs. It would cost us about $1,000.00 to run our own empirical tests. We may or may not do that.

I guess the good news is that at least with my P226, it has been hummin' along for years with regular maintenance, sticky grease, simple inspection and this one bit of micro repair. There may be some other things we will try with exising MIM parts and we hope to keep you posted. But, there is no denying the value of bar stock. EGW, SVI and so many others in the 1911 market have shown this to be true over and over again. The X5 bar stock parts have also shown their value. But, thousands and thousands of more modern MIM-parted Sigs have shown their reliable value, too.
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Welcome from Florida OP and thanks for that excellent post.
. . .
So, apparently when they subject customers to poorly designed and poorly produced parts, (IE: P-938 extractors that continue to break), this is NOT an accident.

. . . yet does not remain functional for more then a few hundred rounds at a time.
BTW, if you have a Sig that only works a few hundred rounds at a time, you may want to send it someone who works on them. There are a number of choices. If you are the owner, we repair with the factory warranty.

Just this week, I learned that Sig has put some more attention to a new production P938 and they actually improved it according to Robert's inspection. Sig also recently changed a perennial problem with the P238 from the production line that I saw when we took it down for the first time out of the box. Indeed, after some work from Robert, one of our sponsored shooters downed the Glock plates with my P238 in about a tenth over two seconds. Ill let you know if I have a problem with my P938.

The brand has good bones but a makeover in the right hands can generally make it better. Even Sig offers Action Enhancement Packages directly through the factory. Almost all brands could be made better with some gunsmithing. So, your loss of a "customer" "for life" decision may deprive you of improvements over time. There is a lot of improvement coming but it is not for us to announce in detail.

Robert will probably be along shortly to try to sort out some issues with yours if you are inclined to discuss it. The P938 extractor has been holding up well for our customers.
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The exemplary reliable, performance provided by the SIGs I own and shoot regularly, strongly contradicts what you have posted.


P220 Super Match: going on 20,000 rounds without a single parts breakage or pistol malfunction.

P220 Carry Equinox: over 11,000 rounds without a single parts breakage or pistol malfunction.

P226 X-Five Competition 9mm: over 8,000 rounds without a single parts breakage or pistol malfunction.

X-Five Classic 9mm: over 7,000 rounds without a single parts breakage or pistol malfunction with the exception that this pistol will not extract Mag tech ammunition reliably, a problem I resolved by simply not shooting Mag tech in this pistol which has been otherwise 100% reliable.

1911 Super Target Nitron, purchased last November so a low round count to this point, but 750 rounds through this pistol without a single parts breakage or malfunction.



I'm a fan of S&W firearms, the majority of my guns are Smith and Wesson, I recommend them to my friends, and I have been buying them for roughly 45 years; but the pistols S&W produces these days, including those from The Performance Center, can't hold a candle to those SIG is currently turning out.

In the friendly spirit of this excellent forum I believe I should end my comments right here at this time.

All I can say is...count yourself LUCKY.

I too have owned a number of Sigs for MANY years.

All had been trouble free.

Based on this positive experience, I bought a P-938 Blackwood.

The FIRST extractor lasted 300 rounds! before it broke.

The SECOND was made TWICE AS GOOD...it lasted approx. 600 rounds.

Now I am getting the dreaded mainspring housing peening.

At this rate, I don't have to clean it.

I just shoot it until it breaks, then I can clean it while it's apart replacing parts.

In short....A DISGRACE!
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All I can say is...count yourself LUCKY.

I too have owned a number of Sigs for MANY years.

All had been trouble free.

Based on this positive experience, I bought a P-938 Blackwood.

The FIRST extractor lasted 300 rounds! before it broke.

The SECOND was made TWICE AS GOOD...it lasted approx. 600 rounds.

Now I am getting the dreaded mainspring housing peening.

At this rate, I don't have to clean it.

I just shoot it until it breaks, then I can clean it while it's apart replacing parts.

In short....A DISGRACE!
I am sorry to hear you are having trouble with your P938.

I have a few questions if you will:

What is the approximate date of manufacture?
Are you the first owner?
What ammo were you using?
Was it by chance steel cased?
Do you happen to have a picture of the broken extractor?

I only ask as I want to help track down what may have caused the extractor to break.

The Sig P938 is heavily dependent on its recoil spring. I suggest to my clients that they change them out every 500 to 1000 rounds. If it was new to you then you were well under the replacement schedule. But if it wasn't new to you it may have many more rounds thru it than may appear.

As the recoil spring wears and loses its rating the slide velocity during cycling will increase. As the velocity increases the extractor strips the still cooling shell out of the chamber earlier and earlier; effecting greater than normal forces upon it. Its possible that as this effect continues the first symptom that will manifest is Failure to Extract. Unfortunately in your case it ended with a broken extractor.

I would also recommend staying away from +P ammunition all together with the P938. Its just too small, light, and recoil spring dependent to handle the greater pressures of +P ammo.

Please let us know at your convenience.

Until then be well,

Robert
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SigArmorer, to answer your questions.

The Pistol in question is a P-938 Blackwood.

D.O.B. 08 Sept. 2014.

As to ammo, I have been giving the pistol a thorough run through since it's first broken extractor.

All ammo has been factory, from Winchester 124 NATO, 115 Silvertips, 147 O.S.M., along with 147 Ranger T's, along with a smattering of 115 FMJ's from Winchester, CCI and Remington.

It should be noted that I do not own or use any Steel cased ammo.

Photos: Alas I own no camera. However, allow me to describe the breakages.

The first extractor broke at approx. 300 rounds. the break took about 3/4ths of the extractor hook and the weapon failed to extract any cartridges after breaking.

The pistol was returned to Sig, where the extractor was replaced. approx. 3 weeks later the pistol was returned. (this took place in approx. November of 2014)

During this time, I took the opportunity to order spare parts from Sig, including two spare extractors.

After it's return, I put the pistol through it's paces. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 6-700 rounds I had a "double feed jam" a check of the extractor revealed that the bottom "***" was broken off.

With this, rather than tie up the weapon of several more weeks, I changed the extractor myself.

Now, simply in the interest of fairness, I have been accumulating ammunition for a number of years. Much of what I have been burning was older stocks. from back in the days when 9mm was apparently loaded to a more potent level.

(if anyone doubts this, try firing off a box of Silvertips from the early 80's. Fireballs and much louder, and more recoil than current offerings).

I hope I have answered all your questions concerning my parts breakage.

Before closing this post, I must state that I am VERY disappointed in the quality of design and the material weakness used in the manufacture of the P-938.

Now, am I an unhappy customer....YOU BET!

However, if anyone thinks that my story is unique, simple read the forums, a number of others have reported similar stories to mine.

Watch how often problems are reported with the P-938, and even worse, how far back these problems have been reported.

We are nearly 3 years into production and Sig still can't figure out a fix?

Come on!
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The 938 extractor is a good example of the type of part that should not be made using MIM (small in cross-section and subjected to repeated impact).
--------------------- GeezerD
Can't Undo Experience

banger,

It's quite late in Texas so Robert will probably get back to you later. I'll leave suggestions to him. In the meantime, it is impossible to undo someone's experience. Your experience could be replaced with a good one but what has happened cannot be erased.

If it has been to Sig once, it may be something less obvious in that particular gun, cleaning or ammo too. If your experience was typical, I wouldn't like mine either.

But, there are those who like to fix things and like to try to understand what happened. If you'd like to know and fix it, Sig and others would probably help you get to the bottom of it.

As in my review, we had to refit the barrel on an X5 Entry and after Robert finished, it produced a less than one inch group at 50 yards on irons. It is possible to make things better with a further experience.

Send a letter to Sig with the pistol if your send it to them because I suspect Sig would want to know what is happening. When you decry Sig for not getting it right, You may wish to consider letting them know what is happening with yours. If there is something askew in your P938, it may benefit others to let the manufacturer diagnose and fix the issue for not just the benefit of yourself.
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