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What is up with the "pistols" such as the P516, P716, PM400, P556xi? It seems that they shoot rifle ammo (5.56 or 7.62) and in profile look like AR style SBRs but in the description I see that what appears to be a shoulder stock is actually a forearms brace. Seems a little inconvenient to me to have to walk around with that strapped to my arm. Is that how people really shoot them? Does weak hand grab in front of the mag well? Does the brace also function as a shoulder stock? Is there a legal issue with just putting a shoulder stock on?
 

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They're meant to be a sneegy an' smaaht way to sidestep SBR regulations.
 

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Nahhh.. It's semantics. It's for folks like me who want an SBR but are ignorant about the law. Most folks don't know that once u put that stock on your shoulder.. Blammo! 25 years
 

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no such thing in my world, SBR or nothing, this rifle pistol craze is stupid
No, I don't think it's stupid at all. What I think is stupid is the SBR [removed] (don't get me started on suppressors - that's stupid too).

Anyway, I have a legal pistol with an arm brace, 10.5" barrel with a suppressor. The gun is used for home defense and that's why it's important to keep is as short and mobile as possible. Mount a suppressor on a carbine or rifle with stock, and you have a long and clumsy gun for maneuvering inside a building.

The arm brace, at least for a time, was deemed by the BATFE as okay to put against one's shoulder. After some pressure on that envelope by manufactures, BATFE reversed themselves and decided that how it's used would define what it is. Fine to put your cheek against the arm brace and bring it up as you would a rifle, but don't even let the arm brace touch your shoulder or you become a felon.

Dead of night, bad guy crashes through my door. I promise I won't let that arm brace touch my shoulder . . . honest.

So why not just use a carbine and forget about an AR pistol with suppressor? Shooting an AR in the house will destroy what little hearing this old man has left. The suppressor takes it down to 22 rifle territory. It also does a better job at eliminating muzzle flash than a flash hider, helping protect night vision. The AR piston with suppressor makes an excellent HD gun (also mounts a light and green laser), with the laser, you really don't have to get that arm brace anywhere near your shoulder. No harm, no foul, no dumb BATFE regs behind splintered doors.
 

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Yeah, Mr Bumper's right. If you ever spend some quality time training with a SBR, quickly becomes clear that these shorties are very effective - quick, accurate and hard-hitting! Oh, they're FUN too !!

And, the fastest, most efficient way to get yourself an SBR is to pick-up one of these pistols. Heck, you can be shooting that pistol tomorrow! A lot of guys with SBRs, all that I know - started with the pistol.

You see, to 'build' an SBR requires BATF's Form 1, which takes 1 to 3 or 4 months to get the $200 stamp approved. And, during that time - you're equipping, shooting & training with your pistol. When you receive the stamp, it's pretty simple to install a rifle buffer & butt stock - and you're good to go.

The alternative of buying a completed SBR rifle requires a Form 4 and if your source isn't local, a Form 3 too. These typically take 6 to 8 months for the BATF approvals. And, you're sitting on your hands while you wait.

So heck, an AR pistol is the kind'a gateway 'drug' we likes!!

Cheers
 

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Thank you KC45 . . .

AR15 pistol with arm brace (no $200 tax stamp ). That brings up a whole 'nuther point: Why do I have to send in new fingerprint cards and passport photos for each additional NFA item I purchase after the first one?. They KNOW who the hell I am! They probably have more **** on me in a file than they do on Hillary (and I'm not corrupt or a liar). Buy a new suppressor or SBR? Should be a phone call, "Hello, BATFE, Yeah it's me again, yeah, I'm buying another one . . . got a pencil, here's the serial number. The $200 fee (should be no more than $25) is in the mail, thanks . . . talk to you next week!" Done.

But for now, since I don't live in the big city, but in the Wilds of NV, the pistol/arm brace combo makes more sense than an SBR w/tax stamp. Simply scan the distant horizon for BATFE agents - wouldn't want 'em glassing me while I shoot, cause at 10 miles out they may think the arm brace touched my shoulder - hard to tell at that distance . . . Not the AR pistol, but this conveys the idea:

 

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when I read the title, I thought you were meaning something like this.
A 45-70 derringer? Why? BECAUSE WE CAN!

With Hornady Leverevolution 325 grain (as I think was in that video), that'd be just over 2000 fps and 3000 ft pounds at the muzzle (though that'd be out of a 24" barrel. Out of that derringer, the unburned powder and muzzle flash would cauterize the wound channel.

With hot 405 grain hard cast "bear" hand loads, my 1895 guide gun kicks like an enraged mule. Don't think I'd be shooting a belly gun even with moderate factory loads. Have to call 911 first to get the ambulance rolling - - for me.
 

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No, I don't think it's stupid at all. What I think is stupid is the SBR (don't get me started on suppressors - that's stupid too).

Anyway, I have a legal pistol with an arm brace, 10.5" barrel with a suppressor. The gun is used for home defense and that's why it's important to keep is as short and mobile as possible. Mount a suppressor on a carbine or rifle with stock, and you have a long and clumsy gun for maneuvering inside a building.

The arm brace, at least for a time, was deemed by the BATFE as okay to put against one's shoulder. After some pressure on that envelope by manufactures, BATFE reversed themselves and decided that how it's used would define what it is. Fine to put your cheek against the arm brace and bring it up as you would a rifle, but don't even let the arm brace touch your shoulder or you become a felon.

Dead of night, bad guy crashes through my door. I promise I won't let that arm brace touch my shoulder . . . honest.

So why not just use a carbine and forget about an AR pistol with suppressor? Shooting an AR in the house will destroy what little hearing this old man has left. The suppressor takes it down to 22 rifle territory. It also does a better job at eliminating muzzle flash than a flash hider, helping protect night vision. The AR piston with suppressor makes an excellent HD gun (also mounts a light and green laser), with the laser, you really don't have to get that arm brace anywhere near your shoulder. No harm, no foul, no dumb BATFE regs behind splintered doors.
yep, the nfa laws are dumb, but thats what we have to deal with. as much as no one likes it, id rather have my sbr than a half a rifle with a goofy arm brace or pistol buffer tube.

atf probably would have left the rifle pistols alone if it wasnt for People on the internet making videos about how to avoid the atf with this super cool pistol brace
 

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Funny thing is the Sig Arm Brace costs more than the tax stamp to just SBR your AR15. There is the wait time involved of course with SBR paperwork. The reason to have an AR15 pistol lower to me is so that you can legally be in possesion of the parts to build your under 16" barreled upper while waiting for SBR paperwork to go through :)

Rudy
 

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when I read the title, I thought you were meaning something like this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i89cMnfxXy0
Yowee. !!

I can only imagine... as my T/C Contender in .45 -70 Gov. ( 12 " inch with a multiported Bbl. ) kicks like a mule on steroids.
I would practice with it again, for a Hog Hunt. I have killed one med. Pig using a 350 gr. Lead flat point.
So, nothing else to prove.
 

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I actually prefer the Shockwave brace over a rifle stock. It's not as heavy, doesn't rattle and I never adjust my rifles anyway. It's way cheaper (I paid $30 for the Shockwave) and the government doesn't have a open invitation to my house, win win!

(Not my pic)
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The arm brace, at least for a time, was deemed by the BATFE as okay to put against one's shoulder. After some pressure on that envelope by manufactures, BATFE reversed themselves and decided that how it's used would define what it is. Fine to put your cheek against the arm brace and bring it up as you would a rifle, but don't even let the arm brace touch your shoulder or you become a felon.
So is the federal law that once a shoulder stock is added to a pistol it becomes a rifle and even though pistols are legal and require permits in most states by adding the stock the pistol becomes a rifle and illegal even though rifles as generally legal WITHOUT permits?
 

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So is the federal law that once a shoulder stock is added to a pistol it becomes a rifle and even though pistols are legal and require permits in most states by adding the stock the pistol becomes a rifle and illegal even though rifles as generally legal WITHOUT permits?
No, I don't think that's exactly right.

If you have a pistol (or AR built as a pistol from the git go), if you add a shoulder stock to it that would be an illegal SBR unless you first got the tax stamp prior to making the SBR - a legal rifle but with tax stamp due to it's short barrel (NOT talking the arm brace here, as it is not a shoulder stock).

If you have an AR rifle build with long barrel, you cannot legally change or construct it into a pistol. How would they know if you just bought a stripped lower to begin with, built a rifle, and then changed your mind and made it into a pistol? I have no idea. But if you did a bad thing like that and did not get caught and jailed, you would have to forever live with the guilt.:rolleyes:
 

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...and the government doesn't have a open invitation to my house...
What's this nonsense? Why do so many gun owners not know how NFA things work? Just because you have NFA toys in your house doesn't mean the federales can come walking in whenever they want. If they show up with a warrant for whatever reason then, yeah, you probably need to let them in. But otherwise, no... that's not true at all. If an ATF agent knocks on my door and asks to see my NFA items, I would ask him if he has a warrant. If he says "no," then I say "Good day" and close the door.

Paying a tax stamp for an NFA item does not give the national centralized gov't free reign to enter peoples' homes at will.
 

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What's this nonsense? Why do so many gun owners not know how NFA things work? Just because you have NFA toys in your house doesn't mean the federales can come walking in whenever they want. If they show up with a warrant for whatever reason then, yeah, you probably need to let them in. But otherwise, no... that's not true at all. If an ATF agent knocks on my door and asks to see my NFA items, I would ask him if he has a warrant. If he says "no," then I say "Good day" and close the door.

Paying a tax stamp for an NFA item does not give the national centralized gov't free reign to enter peoples' homes at will.
Yes sorry I misspoke. A few years ago I looked into a C&R license and decided against it because of the ATF hassles. It's not as bad as a full FFL but not worth the potential for harassment.

I decided against a SBR because I want to stay off the ATF's radar as much as possible, no need to attract attention if I don't have to.
 
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