[Dumbdumb]

But, but, but Youtube gun plumbers said so.

 

[C130640508]

Whether it's a product problem or a perception problem is still very much up in the air.



What, specifically, are you pointing to that everyone else is missing that will cause a P320, holstered, to discharge with zero activation of the trigger? Be very specific in terms of cause and fix for that problem, please.

I think we are gonna find the problems may be in the cheap MIM parts from overseas. We had some parts right on here out of P320 last week, I can't remember what thread it was on but they looked bent up and in rough shape. One of you pro computer operators could find it ! ,,

 

[Dumbdumb]

MIM parts don't heal. If they fail, they will continue to fail. Where is the proof?

 

[mreed911]

I think

Great. Can you point to measurements and proof that these parts are causing UD's without a trigger pull? Given all the attention this issue is getting online, isn't it strange that nobody has started a project for measuring differences in parts sizes?

I don't disagree with you that tolerance stacking could be an issue, but unlike the posted I replied to, I don't have any proof whatsoever that that's the case and can't find anyone looking into it, so I have to assume that's not really an issue... because if it were, Youtubers would be all over it.

If I'm wrong, please point me to the data. As for the person I replied to, I await their specific findings and fix since they asserted they knew the problem and the fix based on their experience as a gunsmith.

 

[Racer-X-]

Whether it's a product problem or a perception problem is still very much up in the air.



What, specifically, are you pointing to that everyone else is missing that will cause a P320, holstered, to discharge with zero activation of the trigger? Be very specific in terms of cause and fix for that problem, please.

They have a product problem that has resulted in a perception problem.
Already have in multiple posts. I'll be brief.
The P320 is a good gun, in perfect conditions, no issues. But you have a polymer frame and a steel slide. You have a striker safety that is too small for the task and can be corrupted with a small amount of debris (why it can go off absent a trigger pull), and you have a striker/sear engagement that is also too small. You put the gun in adverse conditions (police/military) dirty in a retention holster, lack of maintenance, and a slide to frame fitment that becomes compromised over the years and boom, you have a UD. Lots of issues here, I get it, lack of maintenance, user error, retention holster, etc. but also design challenges not tolerant to the aforementioned conditons. I realize these are simply my opinions. Stoner fell prey to the same problem, M16 was great on paper, not reliable in the field. It's better now because we learned to deal with its shortcomings (but it's still not AK reliable). I'm not a Glock fan at all. But Glock, having more guns out there, and in more countries and for 25 years longer doesn't have the same issues. A Glock has 3 safeties. the P320 has one and it's too flimsy for the task. A P320 in condition one is like carrying a series 80 1911 with the thumb safety off and grip safety pinned in place. The fix, IMHO is to adopt the P365 striker safety (which is like a P229 firing pin safety); but this means a slide re-design. Adding a trigger dingus would also help, but you still have a fully cocked striker. Hope this helps. And yes, I'm still a Sig fan.

The more I think about it, the real answer to your question is that striker fired guns simply have limitations. Glock (I can't believe I'm saying this) got it right. The original safe action pistol, it has 3 safeties; dingus in the trigger, substantial striker safety, and it's not fully cocked when charged (striker is only ~3/4 back). Very, very safe. This is also the reason it has a **** trigger, but it's safe. Sig pushed the envelope and tried to give us hammer fired performance in a striker fired gun (perhaps a bridge too far). No Dingus and a fully cocked striker with little, actually no room for error. In addition to my P365 striker safety recommendation the FCU likely needs some work on the size of the sear engagement to the striker. If you look at the pic I posted above, Sig actually solved this on the P365, its offset to accommodate the larger striker safety and it's larger in general. Short answer, Sig already knows what to do!

 

[Racer-X-]

With sincere respect to your experience and knowledge, please identify the components in the FCU and slide that require a redesign, and specifically why.

From my other post.
They have a product problem that has resulted in a perception problem.
Already have in multiple posts. I'll be brief.
The P320 is a good gun, in perfect conditions, no issues. But you have a polymer frame and a steel slide. You have a striker safety that is too small for the task and can be corrupted with a small amount of debris (why it can go off absent a trigger pull), and you have a striker/sear engagement that is also too small. You put the gun in adverse conditions (police/military) dirty in a retention holster, lack of maintenance, and a slide to frame fitment that becomes compromised over the years and boom, you have a UD. Lots of issues here, I get it, lack of maintenance, user error, retention holster, etc. but also design challenges not tolerant to the aforementioned conditons. I realize these are simply my opinions. Stoner fell prey to the same problem, M16 was great on paper, not reliable in the field. It's better now because we learned to deal with its shortcomings (but it's still not AK reliable). I'm not a Glock fan at all. But Glock, having more guns out there, and in more countries and for 25 years longer doesn't have the same issues. A Glock has 3 safeties. the P320 has one and it's too flimsy for the task. A P320 in condition one is like carrying a series 80 1911 with the thumb safety off and grip safety pinned in place. The fix, IMHO is to adopt the P365 striker safety (which is like a P229 firing pin safety); but this means a slide re-design. Adding a trigger dingus would also help, but you still have a fully cocked striker. Hope this helps. And yes, I'm still a Sig fan.

 

[mreed911]

I realize these are simply my opinions.

Yes, this is conjecture, not data. You have not identified a specific problem or come up with a specific fix. Asserting that you have is dishonest.

Thank you for your clarity, however (buried in the middle of your post) that this is nothing more than your opinion and imagination, and that you have no specific tests, data or evidence of any specific problem with the FCU in the P320 that would cause it to discharge with no trigger pull.

 

[M11-A1]

You have a striker safety that is too small for the task and can be corrupted with a small amount of debris (why it can go off absent a trigger pull), and you have a striker/sear engagement that is also too small.

Again, respectfully and referring to added emphasis, has this ever been willfully demonstrated in a repeatable fashion - even with an actual specimen alleged to have UD'ed?

Edited to add...: I'm referring to serviceable pistols, not those adulterated with parts from other calibers, willfully misassembled, or having their triggers pre-loaded (i.e. pulled) by screws, wedges or other miscellanea lying around a guntoober's studio.

 

[Dumbdumb]

From my other post.
They have a product problem that has resulted in a perception problem.
Already have in multiple posts. I'll be brief.
The P320 is a good gun, in perfect conditions, no issues. But you have a polymer frame and a steel slide. You have a striker safety that is too small for the task and can be corrupted with a small amount of debris (why it can go off absent a trigger pull), and you have a striker/sear engagement that is also too small. You put the gun in adverse conditions (police/military) dirty in a retention holster, lack of maintenance, and a slide to frame fitment that becomes compromised over the years and boom, you have a UD. Lots of issues here, I get it, lack of maintenance, user error, retention holster, etc. but also design challenges not tolerant to the aforementioned conditons. I realize these are simply my opinions. Stoner fell prey to the same problem, M16 was great on paper, not reliable in the field. It's better now because we learned to deal with its shortcomings (but it's still not AK reliable). I'm not a Glock fan at all. But Glock, having more guns out there, and in more countries and for 25 years longer doesn't have the same issues. A Glock has 3 safeties. the P320 has one and it's too flimsy for the task. A P320 in condition one is like carrying a series 80 1911 with the thumb safety off and grip safety pinned in place. The fix, IMHO is to adopt the P365 striker safety (which is like a P229 firing pin safety); but this means a slide re-design. Adding a trigger dingus would also help, but you still have a fully cocked striker. Hope this helps. And yes, I'm still a Sig fan.

If this "small amount of debris" causes the issue, does it also become self cleaning when it discharges in the holster?

 

[DirectDrive]

Unfortunately, Sig has a problem, or we wouldn't be here discussing it. I don't like that they have a problem, but they do, simply too many cases to look away. I have been offering introductions to what I think the issues are; they are based on my experience as a gunsmith, Sig armorer, and a shooter with a lifelong passion for the sport going back 40+ years. I get it, you don't like what I've illuminated. I'm calling their baby ugly. You probably have a few, I have 3 P320s myself and 4 P365s. I shot one of my P320s this week, an XC.
To me, it's right there in front of me, I know these guns inside and out. I see what they did, and why. And, no, they don't need me for that, the P210 is brilliant, so is the P226, I'm optimistic for the 211 save the grip angle (but I have plenty of P320 mags). The 211 is a smart move. What I am doing is trying to solve the issue secondarily, and locally with a friend who is a national trigger manufacturer for varying platforms. But it's complex; unfortunately for Sig, the P320 requires a re-design of the FCU AND the slide (and why they can't just do some kind of recall, too big an issue, just too costly).
And hey, Oldsalt, no one makes you read these posts. We're here to interact.

Another firearms designer in our midst, I see.

 

[Racer-X-]

Yes, this is conjecture, not data. You have not identified a specific problem or come up with a specific fix. Asserting that you have is dishonest.

Thank you for your clarity, however (buried in the middle of your post) that this is nothing more than your opinion and imagination, and that you have no specific tests, data or evidence of any specific problem with the FCU in the P320 that would cause it to discharge with no trigger pull.

Got it, concrete analytical type. Not dishonest at all. And so, what have you come up with? Do you at least see there is a problem? Or are you just trying to look the other way? Sure, after looking at thousands of guns over the years, being a gunsmith and Sig armorer I'm 100% willing to admit my assessment is theoretical, but also logical and of sound principals and tons of experience. The problem is multifactorial AND, I identified exactly what they are, what I believe they are. The problem is not in the sights, it's not in the magwell, it's not in the magazine, there are only a few places it can exist and when you know what to look for, it's obvious. It's very easy to armchair quarterback. I'm gunsmith bench quarterbacking, so consider it a forensic analysis. The answer you are looking for will have to come from Sig themselves. Good luck with that.

 

[Racer-X-]

Again, respectfully and referring to added emphasis, has this ever been willfully demonstrated in a repeatable fashion - even with an actual specimen alleged to have UD'ed?

Edited to add...: I'm referring to serviceable pistols, not those adulterated with parts from other calibers, willfully misassembled, or having their triggers pre-loaded (i.e. pulled) by screws, wedges or other miscellanea lying around a guntoober's studio.

It's a really good question, and I appreciate it. I have not. Sig I'm sure has. But it's really quite irrelevant. Given the number of occurrences we've seen, how is it not occurring? How is there not a problem? There are plenty of videos out there showing it happening. Was it a rock in their holster, a tissue, a dirty gun (obstructing the striker safety), slide to frame wear, all four? It doesn't matter. Only thing that matters is where we are now and what to do about it.

This is from an email from one of my distributers, when asked this week about P320 sales.

"A pretty significant decline for sure, still selling plenty of Sig. Just not the 320 models much. Whatever did, or did not actually happen, the buzz has had it’s effect."

I have a gun store and a manufacturers license. To say I'm close to the industry is an understatement.

 

[Oldsalt]

Got it, concrete analytical type. And so, what have you come up with? Do you at least see there is a problem? Or are you just trying to look the other way? Sure, after looking at thousands of guns over the years, being a gunsmith and Sig armorer I'm 100% willing to admit my assessment is theoretical, but also logical and of sound principals and tons of experience. The problem is multifactorial AND, I identified exactly what they are, what I believe they are. The problem is not in the sights, it's not in the magwell, it's not in the magazine, there are only a few places it can exist and when you know what to look for, it's obvious. It's very easy to armchair quarterback. I'm gunsmith bench quarterbacking, so consider it a forensic analysis. The answer you are looking for will have to come from Sig themselves. Good luck with that.

So which is it?

Exactly what they are?

Or what you believe they are?

I'm quoting that disingenuous oxymoron double speak for posterity.

 

[Racer-X-]

So which is it?

Exactly what they are?

Or what you believe they are?

I'm quoting that disingenuous oxymoron double speak for posterity.

Lovely. And what have you come up with? Too much salt in the action? No problem at all, these people are all just imagining things. What have you done to try and understand the problem, except to sit on your throne and critique others adding no value of your own?

 

[Oldsalt]

It's a really good question, and I appreciate it. I have not. Sig I'm sure has. But it's really quite irrelevant. Given the number of occurrences we've seen, how is it not occurring? How is there not a problem? There are plenty of videos out there showing it happening. Was it a rock in their holster, a tissue, a dirty gun (obstructing the striker safety), slide to frame wear, all four? It doesn't matter. Only thing that matters is where we are now and what to do about it.

This is from an email from one of my distributers, when asked this week about P320 sales.

"A pretty significant decline for sure, still selling plenty of Sig. Just not the 320 models much. Whatever did, or did not actually happen, the buzz has had it’s effect."

I have a gun store and a manufacturers license. To say I'm close to the industry is an understatement.

That reminds me of the guy who killed his parents pleading to the trial judge that he's an orphan.

Yeah, folks spreading damaging rumors online will have that effect on sales despite the fact that there's been no scienticially proven problem with the firearm to date.

Hey; did you hear that SIG actually admitted in court that the P320 is unsafe?

Yeah, I heard that falsehood.

Right here in this thread, along with a lot of other damaging nonsense and pure and unsupported conjecture.

 

[Racer-X-]

That reminds me of the guy who killed his parents pleading to the trial judge that he's an orphan.

Yeah, folks spreading damaging rumors online will have that effect on sales despite the fact that there's been no scienticially proven problem with the firearm to date.

Hey; did you hear that SIG actually admitted in court that the P320 is unsafe?

Yeah, I heard that falsehood.

Right here in this thread, along with a lot of other damaging nonsense and pure and unsupported conjecture.

You're right of course, best to just keep your head in the sand, pretend the problem doesn't exist.

 

[Oldsalt]

Lovely. And what have you come up with? Too much salt in the action? No problem at all, these people are all just imagining things. What have you done to try and understand the problem, except to sit on your throne and critique others adding no value of your own?

You, and not me, are the one who falsely claimed to have the answers to an UNPROVEN problem, so don't try to turn this around on to me.

BTW; as for myself, I've got NOTHING, and neither does any reputable and reliable source, since NO ONE has been able to identify, demonstrate, or replicate any design or system failures in the SIG P320, and neither have you.

As for that repetitive appeal to authority; it's simply a meaningless logical fallacy.

 

[Oldsalt]

You're right of course, best to just keep your head in the sand, pretend the problem doesn't exist.

That's certainly a compelling argument you've got there.

"The problem" definitely exists all right; but rather than actually being a proven problem with the P320 pistols, it's spurious YouTube content creators and irresponsible social media and gun board posters who are the problem.

 

[Racer-X-]

You, and not me, are the one who falsely claimed to have the answers to an UNPROVEN problem, so don't try to turn this around on to me.

BTW; as for myself, I've got NOTHING, and neither does any reputable and reliable source, since NO ONE has been able to identify, demonstrate, or replicate any design or system failures in the SIG P320, and neither have you.

As for the repeated appeal to authority; it's simply a meaningless logical fallacy.

Got it, why are you here? Feel free to leave the thread whenever you would like, it's clearly not for you. You seem articulate on the surface. Did you not read the title of the thread?

 

[Oldsalt]

Got it, why are you here? Feel free to leave the thread whenever you would like, it's clearly not for you. You seem articulate on the surface. Did you not read the title of the thread?

So now you're curating the discussion.