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No New Decent Guns

2378 Views 43 Replies 32 Participants Last post by  mig1nc
I strongly believe that we have hit the Apex of modern Firearms technology! All that anybody is doing is trying to make a better mousetrap. Outside of the military making very impressive electronic controlled rapid fire style Gatling guns and mini guns, All That We the People get to see(and own)are lighter weight and usually poorly designed versions of what has been designed in the early 20th century! In the year 1900 John Browning invented the striker fire! In 1906 John Browning designed the 1911 45 ACP! the 45 won two world wars!the 9mm poke holes. Yet I digress, my point is this, the original mouse trap is the best mouse trap! Sig Sauer P series semi autos are the only ones that did any meaningful upgrades to those original designs! And I'm not talking about the polymers! In my opinion, Sig Sauer should have come up with a different designation for their Striker Fired polymers! I am a huge Fabrique Nationale fan, but they have made the same mistake! All of these guns make it on the recall list for one reason or another. Usually that reason is because they are ****! If any of these guns end up in a museum it will be for that reason.( with the headline thank you Glock) the Museum guns will always be the all-metal favorites from Colt, Smith, Henry, Winchester, Remington etc! The best we can do is this, put the best optic that works for you, put the best night sight that works for you on the best real gun(metal) that you can get, own it, love it, live it! And stop messing with the two worst calibers probably ever designed! 5.56 and 9 mm, unless your goal is strictly to wound. My goal is to end a threat with extreme prejudice! Just about the time that 10 mm, 40 caliber just started getting traction everybody started to end it from the government down to the local PD! Conveniently 45 ACP is rarely mentioned. Police departments that are still free thinking and free running are still using Sig Sauer p220s, P226, P229, or various versions of 1911. Those are the guns that will be in the museums! The others will be in the recycle bin!馃コ
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I kind of agree. I don't see firearms changing significantly until some new kind of ammunition is invented or perfected. Kind of like the old caseless ammo or perhaps some type of energy round.
It seems that new technological ammo is what makes mfg's change gun designs in order to shoot the new ammunition.
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The Laugo Alien is pretty revolutionary as far a pistol designes.

You talk about 9mm and 5.56. Calling them the worst calibers unless you goal it to wound. I would ask you how much time you actually have down range? I have used 5.56 down range for over 23 years and it was plenty effective.

Now all hand gun ammo is ineffective. But when you compare modern 9mm hollow point technology to and performance to just about every other caliber it is pretty much on par. You are getting just about the same penetration and close to the same expansion and wound channel with all the calibers. So your point is pretty moot. It all comes down to shot placement for any handgun as you do not get enough energy for hydrostatic shock with any handgun round like you do with rifle rounds.
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I think you are right, but I'm OK with it. There are several old, discontinued designs that I have always either wanted, or traded long ago, to my regret. This is my chance to scratch that itch, not by buying something old, used & abused but brand, spanking new and, often, improved too.
A number of companies are resurrecting these old guns and finding that many, like me, are ready to scarf them up.
What is the old saying, "Everything old is new again!".
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If it aint broke, you dont fix it.
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Till we move away from cartridge and gunpowder I鈥檓 pretty certain we won鈥檛 see much change. Electronic firing systems might make it into smaller firearms one day. But it will still be a cartridge and some sort of ignited propellant.
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Personally I see something coming on the horizon.

The "Alien" pistol is a unique design with a LOT of advantages. Currently they are VERY expensive, but I think sometime down the road some variation of that design may very well be the next major design change that does what Polymer striker fired guns did, with potentially an even bigger impact.

One of many ways to look at the design online...

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If it aint broke, you dont fix it.
^^^^^^ That's pretty much it. Until "laser blasters" become available, we've reached the apex
of design. Currently every manufacturer is toying with the better mousetrap, not coming
up with something truly revolutionary. Even the new(er) entries to the market like Bul and
Staccato are just a re-visioned 1911. Hell Kimber built their entire business around this.

Flame me all you want, but I see plymers as almost a step back. We made the mighty gun
cheaper to produce and intrinsically modular. Great, but why not mass produce them in
China along with everything else? A P320 would be $149.00. The point is, instead of innovation
and craftsmanship we've cheapened designs.
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The striker concept had already been in use in rifles before pistols, and currently the Borchardt C93 - 1893 - is considered one of the first to use it handguns. Browning made quite a few designs which his brother turned into actual guns, they worked as a highly skilled team in creating new designs. When the low pressure .45 came out the 9mm was a contemporary competitor even then - it is usually a matter of fabrication and economics whether to go low or high pressure in handguns and it would seem to also be based on the sophistication of their corresponding infrastructure ie who can make better alloys for barrels and locking mechanisms.

By WWII it was already recognized the .45ACP was aging and the fleet of 1911's were rapidly becoming obsolete - it didn't make much difference as the handgun isn't a primary weapon in combat. Rifles are - and the only reason the Garand came in .30-06 was developement and fielding time for the .276 Pedersen was on hold with an impending war. By 1949 Army command was already looking to change their weapons and the 1954 Army Pistol trials specified a 4" + barrel, SA/DA, 9mm, and light weight. Colt got Alcoa involved making alloy lowers, Smith jumped in late in the game, and the only two viable models to come out of the competition after it was cancelled were the Combat Commander and Smiths 1Gen M9's. Of the two, the Smith radically changed handguns carried in police holsters and was the dominant handgun of the late 1980s - in 9mm. The interesting part is that it was based in the Walther P38. If someone had taken up the Hipower and cut it down we may have had another Browning - but it didn't happen. No, Army had 2.5 million 1911s and square miles filled with bunkers of .45. Low priority firearms just get "kick the can down the road."

Browning himself made the 1911 obsolete with the Hipower, along with the Walther and a few others, the new pattern pistols aren't so much Browning at all now. And by the time SIG patented the barrel hood/slide lockup, about all we have left is the camming ramp on the barrel. Guns designs since 1980 make up the newer features, and the P320 with FCU along with a new short doublestack arrangement created the P365. That's so incredibly new that over 1 million have sold already. It was forecast as the future of handguns and we are now seeing the entire market gravitate toward that design the same as battle rifles have adopted many of the M16's groundbreaking features. If anything, handguns have once again finally caught up to rifles again. If anything, reticence to change is what is hurting Glocks sales.

Battle rifle cartridges have a different purpose in war vs hunting - there, stopping return fire is the goal, and the more rounds put down range, the sooner it stops. Studies in combat have shown a significant number of soldiers are hit by unaimed fire - a bullet that missed striking a soldier at 125m hits someone moving up at 250m. And low recoil is a well known improver of repeat fire - those .30-06 and 8mm bolt guns weren't especially known for getting rounds down range - but a MG would, and it became the bane of warfare then, not rifles. Put all three of the desired features together - stopping return fire, low recoil, and high capacity with rapid fire, and the M16 has become the dominant battle weapon over the last 45 years. I don't see things improving with the 6.8x51 as a replacement. I see it as a response to move away from massed engagements - much like our Patriots vs Brits in the 1770s'.

Overall our new designs and features are right there under our nose, the issue is - will it sell? Bond bullpup, Chiappa, etc have all brought new designs, the tradition bound American gun buyer is who is balking. Many have concepts of use and technology which aren't based in current methods and fabrication. We don't have a tinkerer's or hot rodders mindset in this generation - until you look at garage built guns based on the M16, and that includes 3D printing. There is plenty of progress in those quarters, if it's searched for.

We can build a P300 series handgun in a lot of cartridges not using a factory grip - in aluminum like the 65 year old Commander - with custom slide and red dot. I see a lot of innovation out there - Im trying to obtain a .375 SOCOM barrel for my latest AR15 build. I expect it has plenty of power for hunting. No, I would not care to dump a mag at the range with it -
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Right now I'm at the end of the handgun road and I do not forsee going any farther.
  • My evolution into preferred handguns stopped with hammer-fired classic Sigs
  • My evolution into preferred chambering stopped at .357 Sig
  • My evolution into preferred action configuration stopped when I converted my three favorite handguns (P239, P229, P226) to double action only
That's it. Journey fini unless they invent a ray gun.
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The 7.5FK is pretty revolutionary.

You can get rifle grade terminal effects from a large pistol.

A MP7 style subgun chambered in 7.5 with say an 8-9" barrel would be great.

If I had my way, I would love to see a Luago Arms Alien scaled up and chambered in 7.5FK.

Of course, that would only be practical in a full size configuration.

I think the new 30SC round is interesting but nobody has tried to harness the high pressure of that round to drive a higher performance gun.

With that much pressure a compensator would have a tremendous effect. Likewise you could use gas operation like the Sig MPX much more reliably.

Which reminds me. A scaled up 10mm sized MPX chambered in 7.5FK would also be freaking awesome.


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Right now I'm at the end of the handgun road and I do not forsee going any farther.
  • My evolution into preferred handguns stopped with hammer-fired classic Sigs
  • My evolution into preferred chambering stopped at .357 Sig
  • My evolution into preferred action configuration stopped when I converted my three favorite handguns (P239, P229, P226) to double action only
That's it. Journey fini unless they invent a ray gun.
Line for "ray gun"

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Here are only so many 鈥渧ariations on a theme鈥 that can be done with traditional handguns. Easy pointed out, most of them are tweaks on 120 year old designs. Change material, caliber, and firing mechanism 鈥 but you鈥檙e still dealing with the same physics in the same form factor. There鈥檚 been a little more room to innovate with rifles because of more real estate, but nothing that really 鈥渞evolutionizes鈥 firearms. The next step will be miniaturizing electromagnetic (鈥渞ail guns鈥) for reliable, affordable personal use. Then lasers/phasers/ray guns.

I鈥檇 argue that the 1911 is far from 鈥渙bsolete鈥, as some have stated - it鈥檚 just one option. It may not be for the 鈥渇aint of heart鈥 because it does require some investment in time and knowledge to maintain - but it鈥檚 far from the finicky beast that so many portray it as. But it鈥檚 just one of many firing systems - and the fact that we have access to so much variety is a wonderful thing! 馃槃
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I have "finished off" at least a dozen wild hogs with my CZ 75 compact and Liberty Civil defense 9mm ammo. A shot to the back of the head regularly blows brains out of the nose. I have only done 1 chest shot with the combo (25 yards) and it left a hole in the chest that I could stick my thumb in. 440 ftlbs energy at 2,000 FPS
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We all get to choose. I have a 226 and 229 (9mm and .357 Sig)...........but I carry a 320 XCompact with Wilson grips. I carry what is the best for me to defend innocent life with. I don't care if the model ends up in a museum.
I like my striker fired plastic p365!
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Would agree.

Since retiring I've thinned out my safe a bit and anytime I sell a gun, I sock the proceeds away to spend on another gun.
I've got a nice little savings built up but every time I go to a gun store or browse online, there is nothing that screams "BUY ME". So much looks the same (or similar).

Why buy a Hellcat when you have a P365? Why get a Glock 19 when you own a Sig P320? Outside collecting, the same can be said of 1911 designs. Wouldn't mind a nice revolver, but those prices have gone through the roof. Even Glocks seem repetitive. Makes me miss the days when Sig had a few dozen different versions of each model. Remember all the variants of the P238?

Wife isn't complaining because this means fewer gun boxes being snuck into the house.
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That "no new decent guns" extends all the way to the new .22lr pistols - at least for me. I have been looking for one more and so far just hate every new one I've looked at and dry fired in the stores. I have S7W M&P .22 compact which is a fun very basic range toy, and a very nice Browning Black Label .22lr that I really enjoy a lot. No, I'm not forced to carry just a .22 yet and hope that day will not come. I'd just like one more that suits me. -- BTW I also have/had a Ruger Mark IV Lite but after all the time and money it took to make it work properly I "divorced" it. Hubby is having a lot of fun with it now, but I want nothing more to do with it.

My friends and I are going out of town to go to a couple rental ranges sometime in July. They are looking at 9mm's and I'm going to continue looking at .22's...........not expecting to find one that appeals to me, but willing to keep looking. Others rave about this or that new-ish .22. So far I have not found any of them even close to acceptable for myself. Of course I won't be able to look at or try anything these places don't have, so I do not have high expectations.
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My goal here wasn't too upset anybody. Strictly an observation of modern Firearms technology not being so modern other than manufacturing processes, materials, and techniques. I have bought sold and traded more firearms than I care to remember, some good choices, some not so good choices, and some extremely horrible choices. I have and still put extraordinary amounts of lead down range over the course of 40 years. I've been reloading for around 30 years, and have pushed the limits on almost every caliber that I load. Not to the point of being dangerous, just to the point of getting the maximum out of what particular firearm I am using. It's for that reason I decided 9 mm just did not work for me. I don't know what the issue is with it, the paper math looks good, the ballistics gel penetration looks good, but my real world experience with it leaves a lot to be desired. As far as 223 is concerned the only one I've ever owned was a 180 series Ruger Mini-14, beautiful weapon I wish I still had it! But I've always felt there's much better ways to send a 40 to 60 grain 22 caliber bullet down range then 5.56 or 223. :geek:
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