SIG Talk banner
1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,471 Posts
SO. Let me get this straight. No one ever (during the length of the issues) bothered to pull the "Practice" ammunition to find out what and why there was an issue? And no one validated the performance of the weapons with the Duty rounds being used by the state?

What ever happened to "Manufacturing to standards"? The Ammunition manufacturer produces to a specific standard. The pistol manufacturer produces to a specific standard (Ammunition) and we never looked to see if both sides performed?

Or was it too important to protect Joe's Basement Ammunition company who had the soul source contract for the State of NJ from being kicked to the curb?

Of course, if the Dealer who actually delivered the weapons also delivered the ammunition, then you have a even bigger case of neglect.

Haven't 'had my second cup of coffee yet.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LSC and GCBHM

·
Banned
Joined
·
6,286 Posts
It would be even funnier if Sig were able to counter sue for defamation of character breach of contract under false pretenses.
That would be funny, had Sig done the due diligence to determine that the problem was in fact the practice ammo to begin with, but they didn't. Seems they gave some halfass response and blew them off.

"The company responded to the suit by claiming they made “numerous” attempts to fix the problem and placed blame on the FTE defect first on an extractor pin and then on a factory mold defect and then on an improper coating of the barrel. After these explanations, the New Jersey police stopped communicating with Sig Sauer about the defects. They then returned all of the guns in February 2016. They rebid the contract and awarded it to Glock at that time."

Looks to me Sig was shooting from the hip when the first test they should have done was an ammo function test. Had Sig done that, perhaps they would have been able to say definitively that the problem was the practice ammo instead of blaming it on the extractor pin or the factory mold or an improper coating on the barrel. Again, as I said before, the problem wasn't that the guns sucked. The problem was lacking customer service. Sig should have done better. I'm not so sure this is a case where Sig cleared its name as much as it was cleared by accident after the fact.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
193 Posts
It would be even funnier if Sig were able to counter sue for defamation of character breach of contract under false pretenses.
I would imagine their PR team would have a meltdown at having to justify to its base why it was suing a police department for any reason and it would look even worse for them in the long run. Also bad for business to sue a customer for any reason and would not help sales to other agencies. Best to let bygones be bygones and take the high road.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,471 Posts
Wrecks.
I think you are right that a "Lawsuit" would not do SIG any good. But everyone would benefit from a investigation into the mismanagement of the testing and acceptance. Specifically if we focus on the Ammunition brand, and it's behavior.

Getting the Lot number of the manufacturer, and then finding who is responsible for the selection of the "Practice Ammunition" would make for some interesting press. Not in New Jersey, where the corruption is total, but nationally to embarrass the NJ Police and their management.

Not that they can be embarrassed by anyone or anything.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
6,286 Posts
^ not sure who your talking about? The author of the article?

Regardless I agree that Sig definitely has some blame here. They should have demanded some of the ammo for their own testing.
Exactly! I think the P229 is a fantastic pistol for duty use, and I'm willing to bet that the average NJST would prefer that to the Glock. I think Sig could have settled this better and kept the contract.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
6,286 Posts
Yeah I saw it coming also, he is very passionate about glock. The point he is making though is valid, Sig should have tested the ammo. Major mess up.
I'm really not as passionate about Glocks as it may seem. I am passionate about the Glock 19, but not all Glocks. I actually think that the P229 would have served the NJSP as well, if not better, than the Glock will. As it relates to this issue, however, I'm more passionate about customer service than anything, and I feel Sig could have done better. Like you said, they made a huge mistake not testing the ammo themselves.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JohnnyLoco

·
Registered
Joined
·
386 Posts
I'm really not as passionate about Glocks as it may seem. I am passionate about the Glock 19, but not all Glocks. I actually think that the P229 would have served the NJSP as well, if not better, than the Glock will. As it relates to this issue, however, I'm more passionate about customer service than anything, and I feel Sig could have done better. Like you said, they made a huge mistake not testing the ammo themselves.
Being from NJ and knowing the high quality of the P229, it's the troopers that really lost out on this deal. Everyone dropped the ball on this one. Like everyone said, hope bygones will be bygones. Sig will get future business regardless.

So, with that being said, the bright side for us is there'll be plenty of CPO P229s out there!
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
6,286 Posts
Being from NJ and knowing the high quality of the P229, it's the troopers that really lost out on this deal. Everyone dropped the ball on this one. Like everyone said, hope bygones will be bygones. Sig will get future business regardless.

So, with that being said, the bright side for us is there'll be plenty of CPO P229s out there!
Snatch'em up!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
432 Posts
I've never been involved in that part of contracting, but wouldn't the ammo testing be on NJ? I know that when I've had issues and sent a handgun back to the manufacturer, they've never asked me to include ammo. As well when I have issues with equipment at work, I'm expected to troubleshoot likely local causes (such as bad power/cables) or we can be "fined" so to speak for a unwarranted RMA.

That said, I would think Sig would have reported some form of "failed to replicate issue" response versus making stuff up.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
300 Posts
I'm guessing Sig assumed the NJ police dept was using good ammo.

You know what they say can happen when you assume, looks like it did...



Locke
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,289 Posts
This smelled funny from the beginning. Sig 229 are top quality guns and one of the best there is.
Exactly. I figured it was political and the boots on the ground didn't like it so they were going to fix the problem. That was just what I guessed. Kind of like the 320 that had a miss fire while testing with the NSA or which ever 3 letter group.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
386 Posts
This smelled funny from the beginning. Sig 229 are top quality guns and one of the best there is.
The irony of this, from what I've read, is that Sig upgraded the model to Enhanced Elite from the Legacy model when shipped to NJSP. Both models they tested had FTE issues. It's highly unlikely to have such problems across their whole P229 product line. Had they suspected the ammo initially, this would've ended differently. Good QC practices would have averted such awkward situations. Like I said, everyone dropped the ball. I, for one, would prefer Sig over Glock just by looks alone.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
193 Posts
Could also be a case of the NJSP blowing smoke up their *** about the type of ammo they were practicing with or there were sketchy practices by the armorers for how they sourced and tracked their ammo stock leading them to indicate to Sig that they were using a specific ammo when they were actually using a different one. There's probably a host of reasons for the communication breakdown that can't be summed up with a single forums post and could be an issue of bureaucratic processes.

Think about this situation:

1. Old database records shows NJSP as using Ammo A for practice
2. NJSP sources a few crates of cheap ball ammo as needed, possibly from a different manufacturer
3. Nobody bothers to update the information on the database because all that matters is round count and cost
4. Low level armorer gets batch of sigs and tests, finding that they don't work
5. Armorer reports that to his superior saying it isn't working
6. Superior reports it to his superior
7. The superior then gets in contact with office management team and tells them there's something wrong
8. Office management contacts Sig about the issue
9. Sig asks what ammunition they're using
10. Office management looks it up in the old database and relays info. Going down to the range to verify would take effort
11. Sig racks it's brain trying to figure out a problem because Ammo A should work fine

It's easy for things to spiral out of control with simple missteps in a large system. It's not like Sig is allowed to come to the range and run an inspection on the police, and maybe they offered but the department was less than cordial (it is NJ, after all)



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top