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Never carry in a bar: CCW holder facing 10 years in prison

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Trial just finished in my town. Last year guy goes to a downtown bar with friends and his fiancee. Another patron comes up and hits on fiancee. Told to back off. Eventually, everybody is out on sidewalk. Words ensue. Patron, who is much larger than CCW holder, punches the smaller man in the face twice. CCW holder draws, waits 30 seconds, when he thinks he’s about to be assaulted again, he fires once. Patron dies in hospital few hours later. CCW holder charged with several counts, including murder and manslaughter and sits in County jail for about a year awaiting trial. Goes to trial and acquitted of murder, convicted of two counts of manslaughter.

When I took my CCW class, they drilled into us do not go into bar if carrying, even if all you drink is water. Prosecuting DA had a field day with CCW holder mixing alcohol and firearms. CCW holder’s Blood Alcohol Content (BAC) was either 0.04 or 0.06, I can’t remember, but either are below Orygun’s legal limit of 0.08 BAC.

Lawyer is planning an appeal.

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Sad. I'm glad I'm old enough I'm not in those situations anymore. I just walk away and don't care if my pride is hurt. (Actually, even when I got in fights my pride was usually hurt. Even if I won, I found out I wasn't as tough as Clint Eastwood). In my state there is a differentiation between a "bar" and a "restaurant area" of an establishment. Although, this shooting occurred outside of the bar so I don't think being in the bar had anything to do with the conviction. Personally, I don't drive or handle a firearm in any fashion if I touch alcohol. I used to do pyrotechnics shoots and the group had a no alcohol policy. If you wanted to drink on 4th of July fine, but don't come to help with the shoot. Alcohol and many things don't mesh.

As an aside I've always wondered why alcohol bottles have a warning not to drink when pregnant. Don't they realize that is how many people get pregnant in the first place?
 

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Sad. I'm glad I'm old enough I'm not in those situations anymore. I just walk away and don't care if my pride is hurt. (Actually, even when I got in fights my pride was usually hurt. Even if I won, I found out I wasn't as tough as Clint Eastwood). In my state there is a differentiation between a "bar" and a "restaurant area" of an establishment. Although, this shooting occurred outside of the bar so I don't think being in the bar had anything to do with the conviction. Personally, I don't drive or handle a firearm in any fashion if I touch alcohol. I used to do pyrotechnics shoots and the group had a no alcohol policy. If you wanted to drink on 4th of July fine, but don't come to help with the shoot. Alcohol and many things don't mesh.

As an aside I've always wondered why alcohol bottles have a warning not to drink when pregnant. Don't they realize that is how many people get pregnant in the first place?
I believe it's okay for you to say that's how "women" get pregnant on this forum without getting banned doxed excoriated Etc.:spank:
 

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Here in NM you can CCW (if licensed) in a bar that serves only beer or wine. No CCW if they serve mixed drinks. But you cannot CCW if you have any alcohol at all in your system or if you are using any drugs (OTC or prescription) if they can impare your judgement (think do not operate heavy equipment…).

Here the alcohol would have convicted him, but it seems that he had lots of chances to walk away. A lot of bad choices were made in this case.
 

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Trial just finished in my town. Last year guy goes to a downtown bar with friends and his fiancee. Another patron comes up and hits on fiancee. Told to back off. Eventually, everybody is out on sidewalk. Words ensue. Patron, who is much larger than CCW holder, punches the smaller man in the face twice. CCW holder draws, waits 30 seconds, when he thinks he’s about to be assaulted again, he fires once. Patron dies in hospital few hours later. CCW holder charged with several counts, including murder and manslaughter and sits in County jail for about a year awaiting trial. Goes to trial and acquitted of murder, convicted of two counts of manslaughter.

When I took my CCW class, they drilled into us do not go into bar if carrying, even if all you drink is water. Prosecuting DA had a field day with CCW holder mixing alcohol and firearms. CCW holder’s Blood Alcohol Content (BAC) was either 0.04 or 0.06, I can’t remember, but either are below Orygun’s legal limit of 0.08 BAC.

Lawyer is planning an appeal.

Some States allow it but regardless I never would carry. Texas does not allow it and differenciates between what is considered a Bar and Bar Area in a Resturant, My LTC
instructor Drilled that in to Us during the class.
 

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Here in MD, one can CCW in a place that serves alcohol, but not be 'under the influence'.

I am much more concerned about someone else being drunk and causing problems than my own drinking, although I have my own rule about not drinking while carrying anyway. Like the OP's guy, you might not need to be fully under the influence for a drink or two to play into the jury's minds.
 

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Most restaurants are also bars. If I go into Texas roadhouse after a day out I am not about to leave my gun in my car. I do not leave my house without it so I what am I supposed to do?
Don't drink.

If you have alcohol in your system during a shooting that wasn't in your own home, your judgement will immediately be considered to be impaired. If you want the trifecta, carry some RIP ammo, post on here about how you can't wait to "pop" someone who deserves it, then get buzzed and defend yourself. Even if everything was legal, the inuendo of those three poor choices will get you convicted of something.
 

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That's a dirty little secret of prosecution. They file every possible charge and hope that #1. a plea is made, #2 or the jury finds a guilty charge on at least one of the counts to "make all sides happy"
I'm here to tell you about it! (You know my story) one felony count per bullet, (8) on top of the actual charges. Was drinking but not drunk, on my own property. Self-defense. Overzealous prosecutor bringing a case stacked with charges that amounted to nothing!
 

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I'm sure you're aware how many of these incidents happen in a bar or in the parking lot. I don't do bars and yes firearms and bars are a recipe for disaster.

It does sound like this was something that could have been avoided just by keeping your mouth shut and walking away.
I posted a lengthy thread on that subject shortly after joining The Forum. I have gotten a lot better about walking away from trouble since I started carrying. I used to be too fast to jump, now I just shut my mouth and walk away.:cool:
 

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Easy for the prosecutor to prove intent when you draw and wait 30 seconds before pulling the trigger.
Jury's will always ask if you had 30 seconds why you didn't just walk away?
Having alcohol in your system just makes it worse.

If you're going to consume ANY alcohol, leave your weapon at home.

Learn from this, and don't be that guy.
 

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While the CCW holder may have been justified at point of shoot, it’s an example of what not to do. Should have never gotten that far. Poor judgment on a couple of levels. Let’s not even discuss the consumption of alcohol part as that’s obvious. In my state it’s legal to CCW in a bar/restaurant. The reality is that IF you choose to enter a bar and drink water, go into it eyes wide open as far of what the optics will be if you are involved in a self defense shooting. Carrying in this situation requires that you become a monk. Guy hits on your wife/girlfriend walk. Guy wants to exchange words or fight, walk. Your ego might be a bit dinged up but it’s the price you pay for CCW. Only exception to this rule for me would be an active shooter as I wouldn’t have a choice and my life trumps any legal consequences.
 

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While the CCW holder may have been justified at point of shoot, it’s an example of what not to do. Should have never gotten that far. Poor judgment on a couple of levels. Let’s not even discuss the consumption of alcohol part as that’s obvious. In my state it’s legal to CCW in a bar/restaurant. The reality is that IF you choose to enter a bar and drink water, go into it eyes wide open as far of what the optics will be if you are involved in a self defense shooting. Carrying in this situation requires that you become a monk. Guy hits on your wife/girlfriend walk. Guy wants to exchange words or fight, walk. Your ego might be a bit dinged up but it’s the price you pay for CCW. Only exception to this rule for me would be an active shooter as I wouldn’t have a choice and my life trumps any legal consequences.
Yes. We must not forget that even if we don't have a drink that we are still in an environment where others are drinking, and those others may not have angelic behavior.
 

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It's legal to carry into bars and places that sell alcohol and liquor in Virginia. I have gone to bars, sports bars, lounges, and the like where alcohol is served with friends, co-workers, and/or my significant other. I do not drink, but I always carry. I have done so for many years ever since it became legal.
To quote my dad's advice to me when I was a teenager..."keep it in your pants"--(I'm talking about your CCW :whistle:)
 

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The the OP omitted some details. A patron "respectfully" hit on a guy's girlfriend. The girlfriend politely replied and I quote: "No, thank you. I'm flattered but I'm in a relationship.'"

The boyfriend became upset and started an argument that moved to outside of the bar. The patron thew the first punch, they both tussled, the boyfriend pulled out a gun and killed the patron.

The boyfriend was found guilty of first- and second-degree manslaughter, as well as two counts of unlawful use of a weapon, and one count of first-degree assault. This had nothing to do with being armed in a bar, and everything to do with the idiotic behavior and ego of the boyfriend. He would have been found guilty whether he was in at a bar or not. There reporting was video evidence, and the jury did not believe his life was in danger at the time.

And with that said, I will continue to EDC everywhere that's legal including bars, leave my ego at home, use common sense, obey the law, and only pull my firearm when my life is in danger and I have no other options. That is all I am worried about doing instead of thinking up and obsessing over each and every worse case what-if scenario that could possibly go wrong, and then base my life on it.
 
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