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Modifying your EDC - NOT

11K views 129 replies 42 participants last post by  Trackrider54 
#1 ·
I have seen the argument before that you should not modify your carry gun. I have not modified my carry guns because of the potential legal liability. This article provides some food for thought. I am a CCW holder and USCCA is a great organization. I also have their insurance to protect me legally if I ever have to use my gun in a life or death situation..

Can Using Modified Guns Land You in Jail? | USCCA (usconcealedcarry.com)
 
#8 ·
This is the oldest wives tale and biggest load of horsecrap worry I’ve ever heard.
Where are the many links to stories about people who got in trouble over a modification? Such an issue it is there should be tons of them right?
That logic can be applied to insurance policies for auto and home. Or self defense insurance. All insurance is a losing proposition when factored against the total pool of insured. The fact that we do it anyway, is reflected in the profits insurance companies make.

Even if your local authorities decide that your self defense shooting is justified, you are still exposed to a civil suit. Win or lose, the cost of defending yourself against that civil suit will hurt. I can assure you, that slimy P O S sitting at that other table is going to use everything he can, to collect his check.

Just because self defense shootings are rare, and therefor do not have a measurable baseline, unlike auto accidents and home damage incidents, doesn’t make the possibility zero. If that is your measuring stick for an action you would take as a precaution, CCW is the poster child for something that is worthless. Right?
 
#11 ·
This is a conversation that has gone on as far as I can remember. I can recall this being talked about in the early 90s in gun rags when lots of 1911 tuners started popping up. While I’m sure it could be an issue, I think overwhelmingly it is not much of an issue at all. My carry guns are all modified. The reason is simple, I don’t want to get into a gun fight, but if I find myself in one, I want every advantage I can get. There is no such thing as a fair fight. This is why I have aggressive stippling on my frames, match barrels, tuned triggers or aftermarket triggers, use an Mag Guts +2 kits or a TTI extension that increases my overall round count, some guns have RMRs and weapon lights. For me personally I’d rather focus on winning a gun fight first and worry about any legal fallout after rather than worrying about legal ramifications to start with and handicapping myself everyday. It’s hard to fight a legal battle when you are six feet under. I do believe you should have some sort of legal insurance as well. Just my opinion though. Not a lawyer, just some guy on the internet.
 
#14 ·
While I agree with most of what you are saying, I apply my improvement ”modifications” to my training and practice regimens. I only buy quality EDC firearms, and test them substantially for both reliability and accuracy. If I can’t operate my chosen firearm better than the common street thug, then my issues are not going to be cured by changing parts on my chosen firearm. In the vast majority of instances of injury to the victim of a crime, the extra fraction of a second achieved by gun mods, would have no chance of out weighing all of the bad decisions that came before that encounter. I would be interested in an example of two evenly matched skill level individuals, one good and one evil, being involved in a gunfight on the streets of America, and a race gun making any difference at all.

In any encounter with evil, your proximity to and alertness about the threat will always be the deciding factor. That and being armed.
 
#16 · (Edited)
I couldn't get through the whole video. Watched right past the point of the 1911 grip pinning. Whew .. this comes up on every gun board from time to time.

First .. in the amount of video I was able to watch without rolling my eyes. The lightened semi auto trigger and the pinned 1911 grip safety. The only reason that these mods might get you in trouble is because they "MAY" cause you to let off a round when you didn't intend to in the heat of battle or the precursor. Not because it can be used against you in court.

How can you be tried and convicted because you modded your gun when making gun modifications is totally legal.

I would argue the grip safety pinning is moot because you still have a thumb safety.

I would agree with the poster above that emblazoning your gun with "Kill them all let god sort them out" or the dreaded "Molan Labe" that so many people have fallen in love with may allow a prosecutor to paint you in an unfavorable light. I for one don't feel the need to broadcast my political beliefs or any personal identifying information to the general public and dont even wear tee shirts that are anything but a plain color but that is just me. I dont wear an NRA hat or have a sticker on my door. I dont wear a ruger tee... My business is my business.

However In our still somewhat fair legal system .. You are on trial for one thing .. Did you use your gun in a way that can be justified under the law. So forgetting the two instances I was able to watch which described the possibility of harming someone through a negligent discharge .. you are only in court to prove that you legally used your firearm in accordance with the laws of your state.

If someone is walking in your hallway on the way to your bedroom to do untold horrible things and you kill him with a blunderbuss you are on trial for whether your use of the blunderbuss was justified and not that you killed him with a relic.

These threads almost inevitably wind up at Howard Fish and his more than deadly 10mm which can shoot through engine blocks and was therefore what landed him in jail. Not true. Yes the prosecutor did try and use the gun to show that Fish was somehow the aggressor and was waiting for an opportunity to use his shinny toy but that is not what landed him in jail. He made inconsistent statements (which is why you shut your mouth until you have a lawyer) and the ME made some unsubstantiated ridiculous statements about the way things transpired based on the bullet strikes. The lawyer Fish did get hold of was obviously not very good.

Ultimately Fish was exonerated and released. The 10mm meant very little in the case.

So .. dont make mods that may make you shoot someone on accident and only use your firearm in a way that is justified in your state and those nifty night sites and that Gas pedal thingy wont matter
 
#17 ·
I couldn't get through the whole video. Watched right past the point of the 1911 grip pinning. Whew .. this comes up on every gun board from time to time.

First .. in the amount of video I was able to watch without rolling my eyes. The lightened semi auto trigger and the pinned 1911 grip safety. The only reason that these mods might get you in trouble is because they "MAY" cause you to let off a round when you didn't intend to in the heat of battle or the precursor. Not because it can be used against you in court.

How can you be tried and convicted because you modded your gun when making gun modifications is totally legal.

I would argue the grip safety pinning is moot because you still have a thumb safety.

I would agree with the poster above that emblazoning your gun with "Kill them all let god sort them out" or the dreaded "Molan Labe" that so many people have fallen in love with may allow a prosecutor to paint you in an unfavorable light. I for one don't feel the need to broadcast my political beliefs or any personal identifying information to the general public and dont even wear tee shirts that are anything but a plain color but that is just me. I dont wear an NRA hat or have a sticker on my door. I dont wear a ruger tee... My business is my business.

However In our still somewhat fair legal system .. You are on trial for one thing .. Did you use your gun in a way that can be justified under the law. So forgetting the two instances I was able to watch which described the possibility of harming someone through a negligent discharge .. you are only in court to prove that you legally used your firearm in accordance with the laws of your state.

If someone is walking in your hallway on the way to your bedroom to do untold horrible things and you kill him with a blunderbuss you are on trial for whether your use of the blunderbuss was justified and not that you killed him with a relic.

These threads almost inevitably wind up at Howard Fish and his more than deadly 10mm which can shoot through engine blocks and was therefore what landed him in jail. Not true. Yes the prosecutor did try and use the gun to show that Fish was somehow the aggressor and was waiting for an opportunity to use his shinny toy but that is not what landed him in jail. He made inconsistent statements (which is why you shut your mouth until you have a lawyer) and the ME made some unsubstantiated ridiculous statements about the way things transpired based on the bullet strikes. The lawyer Fish did get hold of was obviously not very good.

Ultimately Fish was exonerated and released. The 10mm meant very little in the case.

So .. dont make modes that may make you shoot someone on accident and only use your firearm in a way that is justified in your state and those nifty night sites and that Gas pedal thingy wont matter
Not meant as a disparagement to your opinion, BUT, I have no idea where you get your experience of the current legal system. It is a war of attrition, and which ever side runs out of money first, loses. It has nothing to do with laws or legality.

Ask me how I know 😱
 
#22 ·
I have had for since 2014 for me and the wife. Platinum coverage for about $420/year for both of us. Includes $2M in liability insurance and attorneys who are on call to defend you, if needed. A lot less than car or homeowners insurance. I feel it is well worth the price "just in case" I have to use my gun in a deadly force situation.
 
#21 ·
From a legal standpoint, if you use any form of deadly force it needs to be justified. The criminal needs to have the ability to kill our cause severe bodily harm, they must be an eminent threat (meaning a guy with a baseball bat standing 100 yards from you yelling "I'm gonna kill you" is not a threat...but if he's 3 feet from you he is), and they must have the intent. If all of those conditions are met and you pull out a highly modified Gucci Glock kitted out for competition and shoot them....or you pull out a stock Hi-Point...it won't matter. It was a justified use of deadly force.

Now...if you are at the church social and you are showing off your gun and your 1lb trigger gets bumped and fires a round off into the pastors foot.....now you're gonna get the business from his lawyer. You modified the gun and made it "unsafe".
 
#23 ·
I think of quality liability insurance as low cost prepaid legal fees... especially if the company is unlikely to dump the policy for the demand amount in a lawsuit.

Modifications to a firearm may open up a line of inquiry in a trial which a lawyer could use to influence a judge or jury against you by trying to convince them that you are negligent and should take responsibility for the results of that negligence.

This can also be used to prejudice a jury or judge against you. Mas Ayoob taught us that using reloads in a EDC gun could open a line of questioning that would end up implying that you didn't value the life of your "victim" more than the quarter you saved reloading the ammunition that killed them. Has that line been used? I certainly don't know, but why open the possibility? Instead, he would say, ask your local police what self defense ammo they use and choose that one... Then the answer becomes, "if it's good enough for my local police, it's good enough for me"...

It's wise to get a copy of your state's lethal force statutes, and castle doctrine statutes if you have this protection, and learn them in detail. Most are quite bound up in legal definition and exceptions, with some states making lawful self defense very difficult. In some places, you have no duty to retreat from a lethal force attack. In others, you must first retreat, even if you have the right to be somewhere.

The complexity of these interlocking statutes and common law in your state is also why you don't concealed carry when it's a violation to do so - even if the penalty for this is an infraction. If forced to defend yourself while already violating one of these statutes, you're already at a disadvantage in an abusive prosecution.

If you don't understand abusive prosecution, look at recent high profile cases like the ones in Minneapolis and Saint Louis.

Our criminal legal system has been manipulated quite a distance from a true "justice" system for decades in politicized attempts to accommodate violent street criminals and avoid the cost of incarceration. Habitual violent criminals must be repeatedly convicted of escalating crime activity before they are even considered for incarceration, and citizens that respect the law are abusively prosecuted in high profile cases should they ever be forced to protect themselves in the wrong political environment. Make no mistake. You'll lose a big chunk of money, many of your "friends" and a good part of your life after such an incident if you're lucky enough to get out alive.
 
#26 ·
I think of quality liability insurance as low cost prepaid legal fees... especially if the company is unlikely to dump the policy for the demand amount in a lawsuit.

Modifications to a firearm may open up a line of inquiry in a trial which a lawyer could use to influence a judge or jury against you by trying to convince them that you are negligent and should take responsibility for the results of that negligence.

This can also be used to prejudice a jury or judge against you. Mas Ayoob taught us that using reloads in a EDC gun could open a line of questioning that would end up implying that you didn't value the life of your "victim" more than the quarter you saved reloading the ammunition that killed them. Has that line been used? I certainly don't know, but why open the possibility? Instead, he would say, ask your local police what self defense ammo they use and choose that one... Then the answer becomes, "if it's good enough for my local police, it's good enough for me"...

It's wise to get a copy of your state's lethal force statutes, and castle doctrine statutes if you have this protection, and learn them in detail. Most are quite bound up in legal definition and exceptions, with some states making lawful self defense very difficult. In some places, you have no duty to retreat from a lethal force attack. In others, you must first retreat, even if you have the right to be somewhere.

The complexity of these interlocking statutes and common law in your state is also why you don't concealed carry when it's a violation to do so - even if the penalty for this is an infraction. If forced to defend yourself while already violating one of these statutes, you're already at a disadvantage in an abusive prosecution.

If you don't understand abusive prosecution, look at recent high profile cases like the ones in Minneapolis and Saint Louis.

Our criminal legal system has been manipulated quite a distance from a true "justice" system for decades in politicized attempts to accommodate violent street criminals and avoid the cost of incarceration. Habitual violent criminals must be repeatedly convicted of escalating crime activity before they are even considered for incarceration, and citizens that respect the law are abusively prosecuted in high profile cases should they ever be forced to protect themselves in the wrong political environment. Make no mistake. You'll lose a big chunk of money, many of your "friends" and a good part of your life after such an incident if you're lucky enough to get out alive.
^^^correct^^^
 
#25 ·
I took Massad Ayoob's MAG-40 class, which is 4 days with a mixture of classroom and range time. He goes over actual cases. What I recall is Massad telling us that some prosecutors only care for a conviction, regardless of circumstances, to further their careers. Some of them will say things like, "Isn't it true you modified your weapon so that you could more easily KILL PEOPLE!!!!" Weren't you looking for trouble carrying a concealed weapon? Wasn't your intent to shoot someone? Didn't you make your gun unsafe by modifying the trigger!!!! Don't you load your own ammunition to more easily maim or kill!!! Why do you have thousands of rounds of ammunition!!!
 
#32 ·
Again, I’ve been in that room, where I’m paying the the salary of every person in there. My side and the other side through my taxes. They will stoop to anything To win. That slimeball on the other side knows that he can make sh1t up with impunity. He golfs with the judge, and I don’t golf.
 
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#29 ·
It’s not the fact that no one can provide documentation or links to cases where someone was found guilty because of a trigger job. It’s the fact that it could. It could be presented as a argument from a DA or opposing council in a wrongful death suit.
In a civil suit it’s not beyond a reasonable doubt. It’s the preponderance of the evidence or is it more likely than not .How a jury interprets that is anyone’s guess.

I have nothing against anyone modding their guns. It’s possible I may mod my DA/SA CZ pistols in the future. One of my concerns is if it works properly and consistently after a mod. I like running my guns basically stock for a while to see if I can become proficient with it as is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
#31 ·
Just mine. I have him on speed dial and I have keys to his house. Every conversation we have about possible liability in my business, ultimately goes back to eliminating as much risk as possible, before the bad stuff happens. As a business owner, plausible deniability is sometimes all that you have between success and loss. In today’s litigious climate, that applies across the board. Bad things happen to good people, all the time, but happens to good stupid people more often.
 
#37 ·
Remember, a majority of society doesn't know squat about handguns. Was anyone here in a gun store during the pandemic buying? Has anyone here talked to anti-gun people or ignorant people in general when it comes to firearms? A jury of your peers will likely not know much about firearms and IF the DA starts down the rabbit hole of how you tricked out your Gucci Glock with all the latest aftermarket parts (which are completely unnecessary to begin with) then they may convince someone who is ignorant that you are just a crazy gun nut who wanted to shoot someone.

Do what you want, think what you want. Its your life on the line if you are ever in the situation and on trial but a stock configured handgun will do the job if you do your and MIGHT keep you out of trouble.
 
#38 ·
Please list the ingenious and lethal "illegal" mods that will get you in trouble.

Every single one is offered in a retail firearm and most are available in some model sold to a PD or SWAT/SERT team.

If you are worried about how a DA is going to badger you on the stand about your guns, who says you have to sit there and take it? You don't have to testify. It's usually something your counsel advises against precisely because the DA will badger you on the stand with questions to make you look stupid.

YMMV. Yall should really look up your local procedures instead of making this some repeat thread on fearmongering and appropriating "legalposturing" few are responsible to make.
 
#40 ·
Please list the ingenious and lethal "illegal" mods that will get you in trouble.

Every single one is offered in a retail firearm and most are available in some model sold to a PD or SWAT/SERT team.

If you are worried about how a DA is going to badger you on the stand about your guns, who says you have to sit there and take it? You don't have to testify. It's usually something your counsel advises against precisely because the DA will badger you on the stand with questions to make you look stupid.

YMMV. Yall should really look up your local procedures instead of making this some repeat thread on fearmongering and appropriating "legalposturing" few are responsible to make.
Who said anything about illegal parts. Legal plays no part in the decision to charge. That prosecutor has an ideological ax to grind, and he ain’t on your side. He is picking and choosing cases with an eye on the next election. I fear some of you have been hiding under a rock. We are pawns on the political chessboard, and the other guy cheats.
 
#41 ·
I modified my P365 with a Sig flat trigger and a M*Carbo trigger spring kit. How would they know it's modified. Do you think they are going to take the gun apart and inspect it. The answer is no. They will check the gun to see if it functions and test fire it. They will then examine the controlled projectile shot from the gun to the projectile that was removed from the person who was shot to see if it is a ballistic match.
 
#42 ·
LOL. If the prosecutor wants to hang his next promotion around your neck, absolutely he will have your firearm inspected. He will get your online post. He will stick his investigation so far up your a z z that he can nod your head for you. And he will mislead the judge and the jury about what you did in third grade. If the thug you shot was a lifetime rapist, murdering, robbing child molester, and black, he will have your third grade teacher testify against you. If I didn’t know better, I would think I was debating with Rip Van Winkle. o_O
 
#45 ·
I recently got into a discussion like this with a buddy after I added a "custom" etched striker back-plate to my 365.

His response: "Any modifications could be brought up in court if ever used and to the why. So best to leave alone"
My response: "Maybe for some things but that's kinda reading too far into it. If it were a hateful comment, hate group logo or image, or expressing malicious intent or harm, that's another matter."

I think the majority of these "fears" and concerns have come from media attention and articles citing that hateful/objectionable messages or images can be misconstrued as willful intent to cause harm.

Case in point, here is an (old) article about an LEO who was under scrutiny due to the custom dust cover he added to his AR that was used during an on-duty shooting.
...and the follow-up article showing the judge ruled that the prosecutor's "evidence" regarding the dust-cover were inadmissible and irrelevant.
 
#46 ·
A lot of this has been going on forever. It’s stuff that gets said by fudds and poors in gun stores and is then carried as truth by the massive influx of new gun owners in the past 12 or so years. It takes time to de-program the dumb thinking but by the time those new gun owners have figured things out, a new group has started repeating what they learned in their local shop and the cycle continues. “Don’t modify your pistol or you’ll go to jail”, “the best gun for your wife is a snub revolver, they never jam”, “never store your magazines loaded, it will cause your magazines not to work”, “AKs never jam, that’s why I carried one in Vietnam”. On and on and on. 🙂
 
#55 ·
Appropriate modifications that I feel are justifiable are night sights, a WML and something along the lines of OEM enhanced mag release such as the enhanced paddles for an HK. These are reasonable modifications that can be easily justified. Night sights help to align the sights in dim light shootings which can avoid missing the target and thus reducing the possibility of endangering a bystander. A WML can be justified as appropriate for allowing positive identification of the target in low/no light situations. Thus making it safer. Enhanced OEM mag release to aid in proper manipulation of the pistols functions. Something like grip tape can be justified as allowing a positive purchase on the pistol thus avoiding if falling or loss of control under recoil.

Although I'm not aware of any cases were modifying a pistol has resulted in a conviction in-and-of-itself, mucking around with the internals is a no-no in my professional opinion. How do you justify lightening a trigger that, in the case of most striker-fired pistols is already light. Unless you can demonstrate you have a disability that limits hand strength you really shouldn't need to lighted an already light trigger.

"Mr. Smith, the standard trigger pull on your XYZ pistol is 5.5lbs. You changed the internals to lighten the trigger pull to 3lbs. Do you suffer from a disability that affects your hand strength Mr. Smith?"

"No sir."

"So then you just wanted to alter the pistol to make it easier to shoot someone?"

While the above is fictitious it does give some insight into 'Cute Lawyer Tricks' to think about. I would not want to be on the witness stand defending a pistol with a Punisher or skull-n-crossbones on it or some internal mod that wasn't necessary for the function of the pistol.
 
#61 ·
Or

”So what you’re saying Mr. Smith is that you had to make the pistol easier to shoot because you lacked the skills to use this pistol as designed by professional to be operated. Remember Mr. Smith that you are under oath.
 
#64 ·
I flattened the magazine butt plate on my SP2022.
415002
 
#72 ·
To modify the trigger or not. I am not. In response to comments, I offer these examples:

  • should I wear my seat belt today? Heck I am just going a few blocks. Then one gets hit by an 18 wheeler. Dang should have worn the belt.
  • should I wear my bicycle helmet for a short ride? I fall and really hurt my head.
  • should I drive over the speed limit when I don't see any police around? Then get stopped for doing 80 in a 55 zone.

"What ifs" can really be bad.
 
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