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”So what you’re saying Mr. Smith is that you had to make the pistol easier to shoot because you lacked the skills to use this pistol as designed by professional to be operated. Remember Mr. Smith that you are under oath.
 

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An article? A link? A single story where a prosecutor tried to use the guns mods to sway a jury?
I’m still waiting….
Kolectr, I suspect there are few (if any) examples where gun mods have swayed a jury despite primary evidence of appropriate self-defense. But there are absolutely stories where prosecutors try, and where a defense was more difficult as a result. If you watched the OP's Tom Grieve video link, he specifically references cases where he's defended against this. Factual, direct personal evidence. (If you don't have time for the whole video, watch for 35 seconds starting at 5:30) If you're not convinced, I'm sure he'd be willing to speak with you about his first-hand experience - he's easy to contact, if you're interested.

Tom's point (that others have echo'd, including rookies like Massad Ayoub) is gun mods, along with "smile for the flash" stickers on a gun, negative social media posts about criminals, texts, emails, t-shirts, bumper stickers, etc. are items a prosecutor can and often does use to try and establish a defendant's mindset - with intent to sway a jury. Tom even mentions prosecutors that argue having a few boxes of ammo in the home is an "arsenal" and demonstrates bad intent! I'm guessing they don't often succeed, but they try anyway (our legal system lets them), and the exercise can add to a defense's legal hassle.

If you're looking for proof of this in reporting by our 2nd-amendment-friendly, "we always get it right", un-biased media (95% of whom self-report in surveys as registered voters for a party that advocates gun control) as a more reliable source than a lawyer who told you what he sees in everyday work with self-defense cases - then, you're right. You are still waiting. But perhaps there are better places to seek good info.

Gun mods are probably a low risk for most situations and people, but folks like Tom and Massad suggest they're not zero, that's all. I take decisions that have risk all the time, and most work out well - but decisions tend to be better when we understand risk (even if small) does exist. That's my view - YMMV.
 

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Thread is in regards to mods making life difficult during a supposed trial by a zealous prosecutor. I have said I have never seen or heard of that happening. I think the burden would be on the ones who think it’ll matter not the other way around. Since you didn’t easily Google it and pull up dozens of examples I’ll just assume I’m right.
I think the problem we are having is a simple English language communication breakdown.

On one side of the discussion, we are dealing in possibilities. This action can be used against you.

On the other side of the discussion, you are dealing with absolutes. This action can’t or won’t be used against you.

The “can be used against you” has had several examples given by other forum members, that you have not disputed. Why the fact that I didn't copy and paste those examples myself bothers you, I have no idea.

You on the other hand, have offered no proof that your “can’t or won’t be used against you” position has any validity.

Early man, assumed he was right when he claimed the Earth was flat, because he hadn’t experienced the curve yet. His version of “easily Google it” was limited to his capacity to walk.

By your logic, 9/11 can’t happen. Until it did. We have absolutes in physics and math. As the last decade has shown us, there are no absolutes in Law, and the lengths the left will use it against us.
 

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I flattened the magazine butt plate on my SP2022.
415002
 

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I think the problem we are having is a simple English language communication breakdown.

On one side of the discussion, we are dealing in possibilities. This action can be used against you.

On the other side of the discussion, you are dealing with absolutes. This action can’t or won’t be used against you.

The “can be used against you” has had several examples given by other forum members, that you have not disputed. Why the fact that I didn't copy and paste those examples myself bothers you, I have no idea.

You on the other hand, have offered no proof that your “can’t or won’t be used against you” position has any validity.

Early man, assumed he was right when he claimed the Earth was flat, because he hadn’t experienced the curve yet. His version of “easily Google it” was limited to his capacity to walk.

By your logic, 9/11 can’t happen. Until it did. We have absolutes in physics and math. As the last decade has shown us, there are no absolutes in Law, and the lengths the left will use it against us.
Show me where I said it never happened?
I’ll wait….

In the meantime I’ll remind you I have said from the get go it is such a rarity that I ME personally don’t worry about it.
This is the same silliness people refer to when they say they won’t carry an expensive gun for edc because they don’t want the police to take it after having used it.
I don’t worry about things like this. Calculated risks I take.
You are the one that seems to keep wanting to quote and post and play merry go round. So I’ll take your advice to another here and tag out of this silly thread.
 

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Discussion Starter · #66 ·
Show me where I said it never happened?
I’ll wait….

In the meantime I’ll remind you I have said from the get go it is such a rarity that I ME personally don’t worry about it.
This is the same silliness people refer to when they say they won’t carry an expensive gun for edc because they don’t want the police to take it after having used it.
I don’t worry about things like this. Calculated risks I take.
You are the one that seems to keep wanting to quote and post and play merry go round. So I’ll take your advice to another here and tag out of this silly thread.
link does not work.
 

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Show me where I said it never happened?
I’ll wait….

In the meantime I’ll remind you I have said from the get go it is such a rarity that I ME personally don’t worry about it.
This is the same silliness people refer to when they say they won’t carry an expensive gun for edc because they don’t want the police to take it after having used it.
I don’t worry about things like this. Calculated risks I take.
You are the one that seems to keep wanting to quote and post and play merry go round. So I’ll take your advice to another here and tag out of this silly thread.
Your words, not mine.
“ A single story where a prosecutor tried to use the guns mods to sway a jury?”
Those words would indicate that you think it never happened. Others on this thread have provided several examples. The words “single” and several , both start with the letter s, but I don’t think they are synonymous.
 

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Your words, not mine.
“ A single story where a prosecutor tried to use the guns mods to sway a jury?”
Those words would indicate that you think it never happened. Others on this thread have provided several examples. The words “single” and several , both start with the letter s, but I don’t think they are synonymous.
No. They would indicate I don’t believe it’s happened enough to make it a real concern to ME.
Meanwhile, I’m still waiting for that ‘single story’ while you play merry go round with my words.
Believe what you want in regards to the topic. It’s still a free country.
 

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No. They would indicate I don’t believe it’s happened enough to make it a real concern to ME.
Meanwhile, I’m still waiting for that ‘single story’ while you play merry go round with my words.
Believe what you want in regards to the topic. It’s still a free country.
Read the thread. There are several examples on this thread. There is a fine line between obtuse and lazy.
 

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No. They would indicate I don’t believe it’s happened enough to make it a real concern to ME.
Meanwhile, I’m still waiting for that ‘single story’ while you play merry go round with my words.
Believe what you want in regards to the topic. It’s still a free country.
Post#62
 

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No. They would indicate I don’t believe it’s happened enough to make it a real concern to ME.
Meanwhile, I’m still waiting for that ‘single story’ while you play merry go round with my words.
Believe what you want in regards to the topic. It’s still a free country.
Post#51
 

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Discussion Starter · #72 ·
To modify the trigger or not. I am not. In response to comments, I offer these examples:

  • should I wear my seat belt today? Heck I am just going a few blocks. Then one gets hit by an 18 wheeler. Dang should have worn the belt.
  • should I wear my bicycle helmet for a short ride? I fall and really hurt my head.
  • should I drive over the speed limit when I don't see any police around? Then get stopped for doing 80 in a 55 zone.

"What ifs" can really be bad.
 

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I have seen the argument before that you should not modify your carry gun. I have not modified my carry guns because of the potential legal liability. This article provides some food for thought. I am a CCW holder and USCCA is a great organization. I also have their insurance to protect me legally if I ever have to use my gun in a life or death situation..

Can Using Modified Guns Land You in Jail? | USCCA (usconcealedcarry.com)
I did all the Apex spring and trigger mods to my S&W SD series guns a few years ago. They are only range toys now. It was fun and I learned a few things, but I'm through modifying 300 dollar guns. Nothing I carry is modified, save for paint on the front sight of two revolvers.
 

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From reading these responses it appears to me as if you guys may be arguing a questionable shoot. If someone breaks into your home and you shoot them (in my state anyway)...it's justified. Whether you used an elephant gun or a BB gun. If you are attacked on the street and it's justified use of deadly force, the weapon won't matter...knife, baseball bat, axe, hatchet, machete, or gun.

Where a modified gun is going to bite you is if you have a negligent discharge. The prosecution will slay you saying you were liable because you modified a firearm and made it "easier to fire" or "unsafe".

But hey..that's why I carry insurance. I know to keep my mouth shut, call my attorney, and let them do the talking. I sincerely hope that money I spend each month is a total waste and I never have to defend myself. It's my worst nightmare. But I'm prepared if I have to defend myself or my family.
 

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Who said anything about illegal parts. Legal plays no part in the decision to charge. That prosecutor has an ideological ax to grind, and he ain’t on your side. He is picking and choosing cases with an eye on the next election. I fear some of you have been hiding under a rock. We are pawns on the political chessboard, and the other guy cheats.
That's the whole point - there are NO illegal parts to most of these speculative thread fests. It's just fearmongering to incite gun owners to stop customizing their firearms. Considering it's a blanket attack on the sponsors of every gun forum I don't see where it's going to be viewed in a positive light.

AGAIN - what is on the list of incredibly devastating modifications that signal the intent to brutally destroy whoever earned having a gun pointed at them? The idea that some phalanx of lawyers is lined up waiting to respond in court to that is really saying your defense counsel are clowns who can't fix a parking ticket and who will only stand by with their tail tucked while the DA assistant to the coffee fetcher disassembles their career. What makes anythng the DA utters an absolute truth that can't be refuted? He's just the paid liar of the official system. Hire better.

There are trial procedures which protect the accused from testifying in person, and for all that, so what? Attorneys make outrageous and unacceptable statements which might hurt someone's feelings? They are PAID to do that, it's the standard of conduct and expected. It's an arguement over the ethical and legal standard of conduct of the person accused - expect trash talk or get out of the courtroom.

We need to stop advising gun owners to tuck tail and run away. It's not going to stop, and it's necessary to fight back hard every time it happens, and to spread the word of who is doing it so they can face it at election time. NOT doing something for the last 50 years hasn't worked yet, has it?
 

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That's the whole point - there are NO illegal parts to most of these speculative thread fests. It's just fearmongering to incite gun owners to stop customizing their firearms. Considering it's a blanket attack on the sponsors of every gun forum I don't see where it's going to be viewed in a positive light.

AGAIN - what is on the list of incredibly devastating modifications that signal the intent to brutally destroy whoever earned having a gun pointed at them? The idea that some phalanx of lawyers is lined up waiting to respond in court to that is really saying your defense counsel are clowns who can't fix a parking ticket and who will only stand by with their tail tucked while the DA assistant to the coffee fetcher disassembles their career. What makes anythng the DA utters an absolute truth that can't be refuted? He's just the paid liar of the official system. Hire better.

There are trial procedures which protect the accused from testifying in person, and for all that, so what? Attorneys make outrageous and unacceptable statements which might hurt someone's feelings? They are PAID to do that, it's the standard of conduct and expected. It's an arguement over the ethical and legal standard of conduct of the person accused - expect trash talk or get out of the courtroom.

We need to stop advising gun owners to tuck tail and run away. It's not going to stop, and it's necessary to fight back hard every time it happens, and to spread the word of who is doing it so they can face it at election time. NOT doing something for the last 50 years hasn't worked yet, has it?
Maybe it’s your experience or history that makes this point so confusing to you. The Law and any legality, have zero to do with it. If that slickster sitting at the table, discussing whether to charge you, or not, has any possible thing to put on the charge side of the discussion, he will. That’s his job, and his political leanings are his guiding principles. This decision is also weighted by what’s going on outside, in the halls of power. It has nothing to do with legality. It is a political decision.
Once he decides to charge you, he is going to look under very rock for any little piece of sh1t he can misconstrue to the judge and jury, who are not your friends. They bring their own sh1t to the fight. If you live in a leftist city, such as mine, that deck doesn’t even have any cards in your favor. While you are paying for your defense, you are paying for those guys on the other side too. They can outspend you. I give Michael Flynn as an example.
After any conflict that initiates contact with the government in any form or fashion, we are advised to not say a word without a lawyer present. Any firearm related encounter is screaming words to that leftist group deciding your fate. The overwhelming majority of taxpayer funded jobs are held by leftist. It’s not even close. The firearm itself is also screaming words that can be used against you. I give the “assault weapon” words as an example. If the examination of your confiscated firearm shows action enhancements, each one of those changes is more words that can be misconstrued about you.

This has zero to do with the law or any legality. You are up against a hundred years of bad press, and leftist disarmament campaigns.

You do what you want. Roll the dice. Whatever. My hope is that if I am ever in a self defense shooting, I come out looking like an innocent Mr ordinary, not a gun slinger. And go home afterwards. The more shallow my exposure in the shark tank, the better for me. But hey, dive deep Brother, and we can read about it in the funny papers.
 

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We're saying pretty much the same thing about the legal atmosphere that a trial "COULD" become - but it's not an absolute that a self defense shooting marks you as their next target to destroy.

There is ALWAYS risk and those who hype it contribute to the fearmongering going on right now in the public discourse. Can it happen, yes. IS is happening? If we drag out every example of how a DA MIGHT respond, we can beat the drums of fear daily and we'd wind up having a pandemic of gun control being shoved down our throats because of all the false fear and bend the knee posturing from what should be patriots and 2A supporters.

We cannot comply our way out of tyranny. If I remember correctly, the British told us to turn in our weapons and lump it. I believe the answer they got was EFF OFF!

I'm not going to sell my SIG's and buy a Glock worrying over some career bureaucrat.
 

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That logic can be applied to insurance policies for auto and home. Or self defense insurance. All insurance is a losing proposition when factored against the total pool of insured. The fact that we do it anyway, is reflected in the profits insurance companies make.

Even if your local authorities decide that your self defense shooting is justified, you are still exposed to a civil suit. Win or lose, the cost of defending yourself against that civil suit will hurt. I can assure you, that slimy P O S sitting at that other table is going to use everything he can, to collect his check.

Just because self defense shootings are rare, and therefor do not have a measurable baseline, unlike auto accidents and home damage incidents, doesn’t make the possibility zero. If that is your measuring stick for an action you would take as a precaution, CCW is the poster child for something that is worthless. Right?
This depends on your location.
Many states now do not allow civil suits if its a good shoot.
 

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We're saying pretty much the same thing about the legal atmosphere that a trial "COULD" become - but it's not an absolute that a self defense shooting marks you as their next target to destroy.

There is ALWAYS risk and those who hype it contribute to the fearmongering going on right now in the public discourse. Can it happen, yes. IS is happening? If we drag out every example of how a DA MIGHT respond, we can beat the drums of fear daily and we'd wind up having a pandemic of gun control being shoved down our throats because of all the false fear and bend the knee posturing from what should be patriots and 2A supporters.

We cannot comply our way out of tyranny. If I remember correctly, the British told us to turn in our weapons and lump it. I believe the answer they got was EFF OFF!

I'm not going to sell my SIG's and buy a Glock worrying over some career bureaucrat.
I think you are trying to put words in my mouth. Perhaps you are attempting to get me to help argue your side of the debate. I have very clearly said several times, it can be used against you. You, and a couple others, are saying and banking on it won’t be used against you. Now you are admitting that it could and can be used. No one is fear mongering to force compliance. I haven’t heard a single instance of someone saying that he has heard a prosecutor or DA say they are going to do this. What we are saying is that they can and have done it. Linear thinking will help sort out this real simple concept. Stay in a straight line from point A to point B.

I have no idea where you came up with the plan to sell your Sig and buy a Glock.
 
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This depends on your location.
Many states now do not allow civil suits if its a good shoot.
Of course. That point is well known, and has been discussed. My CCW is recognized in many other States, some of which don’t offer that protection, which incidently doesn’t protect you from the DA or Prosecutor.
 
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