SIG Talk banner

I think I had it all wrong (bore axis argument)

9719 51
It occurred to me today that as a proponent of the bore axis argument in stating that the higher bore axes of Sig Sauer pistols was a disadvantage to Dig that I was in fact wrong.
I know just enough about recoil to be dangerous and only comparably knowledgeable about earthquakes but, it appears to me that if seismology is right that the further away from the epicenter one gets the less felt recoil/ground shaking is observed. Now, applying this bit of general knowledge to firearms, one can surmise that the action of firing the chambered round which would represent the epicenter being further away from the shooter's hand allows for the recoil to be mitigated more so by the firearm than the shooter's hand and arm. Therefore, the higher bore axes of Sig Sauer pistols is actually an advantage instead of a disadvantage.

All feedback welcome and no I have not to my knowledge regurgitated anything I read on the internet.

Sent from my MT2L03 using Tapatalk
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 52 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,265 Posts
I think it has more to do with the mass of the slide being put in motion and its distance from the fulcrum. Think a seesaw, weight further out has greater leverage than weight at the center. Meanwhile the greater weight of the slide concentrated closer to the barrel helps deaden the recoil while having less leverage on the gun.
Thus about ends my physics capacity.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,418 Posts
Bore IMO bore axis is just one small possible factor that could effect the recoil characteristics of an autoloading pistol. Other possible factors of the pistol itself could include, but not limited to, mass and distribution of mass within the pistol, length of the pistol, mass of the slide and distribution of mass within the slide, length of the slide, slide velocity, recoil spring assembly characteristics, hammer spring characteristics in hammer fired pistols, frame material, grip shape and texture characteristics and how it interfaces with a particular shooters hand and fingers. Then of course there are factors of the shooter including the shooter's skill, experience, techniques (particularly grip and locking wrists), physical size, and strength (check the forearms on some of the top shooters).

So it is not so simple to look at a pistol and judge it's recoil characteristics based only on it's bore axis. The only way I can tell for sure are to shoot the pistol myself. IMO bore axis talk is way overblown and is something I don't even consider as a factor when looking to purchase a pistol.

Travis Haley demonstrates how grip is crucial to controlling a pistol in the short video below at about 2.55.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
211 Posts
Agreed, bore axis is just one part of the equation. Now, I do believe that if you take a two identical handguns that have only their bore height as the difference (lets say a standard G19 and a G19 that has the bore axis of p320) I believe the the lower bore axis will result in less felt recoil/muzzle flip. With that said, I feel that a P320 has less felt recoil/muzzle flip than either a G19 or P07 in my hands.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
6,262 Posts
IMO, the whole "bore axis argument" is really moot when it comes to guns like the Sig and Glock. Granted, there is a higher bore axis on the Sig than the Glock, but let's be real here. If you can't shoot a Sig accurately you need to put guns down and take up bowling. I understand that individual preference trumps all, meaning some folks aren't going to like the Sig. That's fine! But again, if anyone, as a shooter, cannot pick up a Sig Sauer pistol and shoot it accurately...they need to leave guns behind. In other words, the bore axis argument is about as silly as the grip angle argument. It's just an excuse, which is for losers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,738 Posts
  • Like
Reactions: Plinkasaurusrex

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,265 Posts
Hold a hammer up, hand at the end of the grip. Let the business end fall away from you until it's nearly parallel to the ground. Now lever the business end back towards you, stopping it just past perpendicular to the floor. Repeat a few times a little faster each time.
Then move your grip halfway up the handle and repeat. Then grip it just under the head. Repeat the exercise. Follow?

That's a basic example.
I believe it has less to do with "bore axis" and more to do with grip. Most often the lower bore axis platforms have a slide profile/grip that keeps the weight of the slide closer to the hand.

I believe the "bore axis" has more to do with accuracy (especially point and shoot accuracy) as there is less sight angle between the sights and.....the bore.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hauki and asdfzxcv

·
Registered
Joined
·
191 Posts
I've always thought of it this way - you have recoil and muzzle flip and they are different things and effected by different things. You feel recoil in your hand and muzzle flip in your wrist.

There is no special way to hold a handgun to reduce recoil, it is built in to the design of the pistol and cartridge. There are ways to hold a handgun to reduce muzzle flip and there are design decisions that can also reduce flip, bore axis and front end weight being the major factors.

I think discussions about recoil and bore axis often confuse recoil and muzzle flip and talk about them as if they are the same thing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
372 Posts
Having read this thread, I think we can all agree that physics is physics. The higher the bore axis is above your hand(s) grip the more muzzle flip you'll have to deal with. But, I agree, we can all learn to deal with it. And different weapons with higher bore axes handle it better than others. And, obviously, proper grip on the weapon. I use to, and still occasionally do competition shooting (IDPA, Steel Challenge). Target transition from one target to the next is much more rapid when muzzle flip is reduced.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,418 Posts
I've always thought of it this way - you have recoil and muzzle flip and they are different things and effected by different things. You feel recoil in your hand and muzzle flip in your wrist.

There is no special way to hold a handgun to reduce recoil, it is built in to the design of the pistol and cartridge. There are ways to hold a handgun to reduce muzzle flip and there are design decisions that can also reduce flip, bore axis and front end weight being the major factors.

I think discussions about recoil and bore axis often confuse recoil and muzzle flip and talk about them as if they are the same thing.
But they are both related and components of the force that a shooter experiences from the discharge of the pistol and all auto loading pistols will have both.

Here is a terrific video by Jerry Miculek that shows what happens if the shooter does not have a high grip and lock his/her wrists in order to manage muzzle flip optimally to bring the pistol quickly right back on target. Pertinent info starts at 19:30. He discusses optimal grip starting at 8:30 though whole video is worth watching IMO.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
Not really, a CZ 75 vs SIG P22X, Bore axis is very close and very irrelevant.
I've never given the bore axis differences among pistols much concern. There's a pile of other variables that are more important to me.

It does get kicked around a lot on the interweb forums. Fun stuff to ponder since we aren't able to be at the range at the moment, but are thinking about it, lol.

I've never messed around much with a CZ75....simply never seen them in local gun shops. II'll likely give one a try someday. I'd also like to add a Hi Power to the mix....someday. Don't know how I'll feel about the ergonomics & the triggers until then. It's gonna likely be a disappointment as I'm really pleased with the SRT in my P226 and a long time fan of 1911 triggers.






But they are both related and components of the force that a shooter experiences from the discharge of the pistol and all auto loading pistols will have both.

Here is a terrific video by Jerry Miculek that shows what happens if the shooter does not have a high grip and lock his/her wrists in order to manage muzzle flip optimally to bring the pistol quickly right back on target. Pertinent info starts at 19:30. He discusses optimal grip starting at 8:30 though whole video is worth watching IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChSazF41q-s



I really enjoyed that video. Great watching it while sipping the day's first coffee.

I can't freaking wait to hit the range and simplify things as he suggests and demonstrates. Excellent video, in my opinion.

A few months ago my ortho doc told me it's time to replace my right shoulder, he was just waiting on me to throw in the towel and schedule the surgery. A month later I was forced to have a disc replaced in my neck and the shoulder replacement had to be put on the back burner.

7 days after the disc replacement found me at my local indoor range having fun with a brief range session running a couple pistols. Suffice to say the newly repaired neck wan't forgiving of any head tilt bidness or other wonky positions other than a natural stance that was squared up to target....Imagine that....I had to learn the benefits of a natural stance by breaking my neck first........I could have simply watched this video first and saved myself the pain and aggravation :D


Thanks for posting this excellent resource.
 
1 - 20 of 52 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top