SIG Talk banner
  • Notice image

    SigTalk is a forum community dedicated to SIG Sauer enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about Sig Sauer pistols and rifles, optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more!

How well does the average handgunner shoot?

10K views 104 replies 39 participants last post by  Luckypup 
#1 · (Edited)
I'm sure the answers to this will vary quite a bit, but I'm curious, so I'll ask it anyway.

Some of you see a lot of shooters. Do you have a guess at how well the average hand gun shooter shoots at, for instance, a 25 yd target?

What would you say an "average" 5 shot group size would be?

What would a "good" 5 shot group size be?

Answer for both offhand and from a rest.

Specify firearm if you think it makes a big difference.

Edit to add: Please don't ask me to define average, I can't. Use your own definition.
 
#2 · (Edited)
I would say that the "average" handgun shooter would not be able to group 5 out of 5 shots on a chest-sized target at 25 yards offhand.

Out of 5 shots taken, I would guess he/she would get 1-2 hits, if any.

From a rest (I assume you mean sandbag, range bag, or similar, and not a proper Ransom rest), I'm guessing the "average" shooter gets maybe 2-3 hits out of 5 shots.

Remember, few of us here are marksmanship experts, but we are gun enthusiasts, so we train more than your average Jane and Joe. Don't let that perspective skew your understanding of what "average" is, if we are including all comers. The "average" pistol shooter is pretty horrible, as the ROs and instructors here can surely testify.
 
#62 ·
our range has Bianchi Plates at 25 yards. I would say most average shoters are lucky to hit 2 of the 5 with a whole mag (say 15 rounds). I doubt many average shooters could calculate a group at 25 yards--if they did actually calculate a group at 25 yards, my estimate would be 7 feet, with a few outliers.
 
#3 ·
My shooting is probably not as good as I feel like it is. At 25 yards on a 12" target somewhat taking my time standing unsupported I am about 50% on the target. So group size......uh maybe 2' lol. Not using a target pistol or anything fancy. Never shot from a rest with a pistol. I think when I really slowed down I did better. I just joined a range for the first time and have to slow fire there. I normally would not do that. I might slow fire a few here and there or do a couple double taps or triples. But a lot of times I will just walk toward away from or side to side from the target and just empty the mag. I feel in some ways that might be better practice for a confrontation with the BG than slow firing for accuracy at 25 yards on a stationary object. Not to say that accuracy and slow fire are useless. I plan on gettting some better sights for my G21 and trying to become more accurate with it. I will say that at the range the other day I was all over the target at 25yards but I noticed there were 5 or 6 shots grouped together in about 2.25". whatever I was doing for that particular string was working!

But to answer the original question I would say about like me. Way bigger than people want to admit. Obviously there are some awesome shooters out there. But the average guys.......really probably just suck in comparison.
 
#5 ·
Out to about 12 yards, I can keep my holes on a 6" paper plate. At 18 yards I shoot 9" plates and keep most (7+) on target. At 25 yards, I use 2 legal size sheets making a 16ish inch square. I'm happy if I put holes in it, forget about something I could call a group. I don't shoot at 25 often, 40-100 rounds a year. 7-15 yards is where I train for stand and shoot. 3-7 yards is where I train. With duck n cover/moving drills.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mainer
#6 · (Edited)
No way of knowing average out of tens of many tens of millions of pistol owners and I am sure it would be very poor. Many/most I see at the range have difficulty getting all shots on paper at 7 yards and I doubt they could get a single shot on paper at 25 yards offhand unless it was just a lucky shot.

IMO a "good" group at 25 yards offhand would be around 10 inches about on center of target when taking time to make shots count with a combat style handgun where the mechanical accuracy of the pistol may be around 3-4 inches with cheaper range practice ammo. On a good day I can usually get 12 of 15 shots on an 8 inch target at 25 yards. I focus more on 7-15 yards and most at seven yards. I like to see where my shots hit as I make them and use splatter type target. At 7 yards I try to get 8 out of 10 inside a 2 inch circle on center, with the other 2 close, by of target at 7 yards offhand when I slow down for more accuracy. When increasing speed to 1-2 shots a second accuracy does suffer somewhat but not dramatically. I usually don't shoot any faster than about 2 rounds a second or I will get grief from my range where they say max is 1 round a second.

At 25 yards the front sight post on my pistol covers the whole dang target. I might get better results shooting "6 o'clock" pumpkin on the post at that distance. I RARELY see anyone shooting pistol at 25 yards at my range.

IMO measuring groups needs to be a deliberate effort in that I am shooting 5-10 shots and all those are included in the group and not shooting 50 rounds and measuring the 5 shots closest together LOL.

I shot this a while back with my P226 at 25 yards. Looks like 2-3 missed target entirely but I was happy with the results. Target is 8 inches.



A couple weeks ago shooting my PPQ at 7 yards, 10 rounds.

 
#8 ·
I guess based off of your criteria I am probably a below average shooter. Shooting for groups with a handgun at 25 yards isn't something I'm very good at.

If I want to shoot groups I'll do it with a rifle.

For me a handgun is a close range, last ditch defensive weapon.

When I compete in my local IDPA matches I will usually place somewhere around 7th or 8th out of 25 to 30 shooters. In my mind, finishing in the top half of the field means I'm above average when it comes to my skills.

I'm guessing my groups offhand at 25 yards would be about 10-12" with a flyer every five or six rounds or so.

Handgun selection definitely makes a difference for me. If you told me we were going to be shooting groups at 25 yards I'd probably show up with a P226 or possibly a VP9. I don't own a 1911 right now but if I did you can bet that's what I'd show up with.
 
#9 ·
When I compete in my local IDPA matches I will usually place somewhere around 7th or 8th out of 25 to 30 shooters. In my mind, finishing in the top half of the field means I'm above average when it comes to my skills.
If you are finishing in the top third among a field of competitive shooters, you are way, way, above "average."
 
#11 ·
I don't train at that distance. Max distance at my range is 50 feet and I don't have any issues getting target mass with about 75% of my rounds just goofing around. Would love to get a Smitty Performance Center .44 caliber and practice at longer ranges or even hunt with it. That would be a good time.
 
#12 ·
"Will" is a 12X20 inch AR500 steel silhouette.

This was shot with my X-Five AR at 25 yards. Looks like two shot in none vital areas.

Fire At Will!

I'd say I'm pretty much an average handgunner around here.
 
#13 ·
I'm sure the answers to this will vary quite a bit, but I'm curious, so I'll ask it anyway.

Some of you see a lot of shooters. Do you have a guess at how well the average hand gun shooter shoots at, for instance, a 25 yd target?
From my personal experience and observation at various ranges, what I would consider to be the "average" handgun shooter does not shoot well at all and would fail this test most assuredly. Most don't even shoot out to 25 years often enough to become proficient at that range, nor do they really seem to shoot enough to be any good at distances of 15 yards in. What I have normally seen is shooters shooting at targets btwn five to seven yards, and taking their time carefully aiming with all sorts of grips, mind you, spraying the targets with no discernible pattern or intended grouping as if they are pleased they hit the target at all. This suggests to me they have not had any training to know how to shoot proficiently, let alone know they need to be able to obtain a particular score of any kind.

What would you say an "average" 5 shot group size would be?
I would say that at a range of 25 yards the average handgun shooter will do well to hit the area center mass five times shooting a magazine of 15 rounds.

What would a "good" 5 shot group size be?
At 25 yards a "good" group size should be within 12 inches. Excellent would be within 6", and outstanding would be inside 3", IMO.

Answer for both offhand and from a rest.
For me, from the rest at 25 yards, taking my time, I should be able to put five shots inside 3", and this should be the same for either hand b/c you're resting the gun on a stationary balance. Offhand without a resting position, however, would be another matter. I would be happy to get five shots in the center mass in a magazine of 15 shots.

Specify firearm if you think it makes a big difference.
For the average shooter I definitely think the caliber and size of the gun will make a big difference. For an experienced shooter it will have an affect; however, I do believe there will be less of a difference for experienced shooters. Honestly, I believe the average handgun shooter probably shoots their gun maybe two to three times a year. The above average shooter probably will shoot at least once a quarter while what I consider to be a proficient shooter will shoot monthly. Those who shoot weekly will be noticeably more proficient and able to obtain much better scores.

Shooting is a perishable skill meaning a certain level of proficiency isn't something you can obtain and maintain without doing it often. It is very easy to tell experienced shooters from inexperienced shooters, but even beyond that it is easy to tell those who shoot weekly from those who don't. And, it is easy to tell those who train with moving targets, shifting from different positions, etc. from those who only shoot at the range on lanes. It's all a matter of the time one commits to it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sigarms228
#15 ·
From my personal experience and observation at various ranges, what I would consider to be the "average" handgun shooter does not shoot well at all and would fail this test most assuredly. Most don't even shoot out to 25 years often enough to become proficient at that range, nor do they really seem to shoot enough to be any good at distances of 15 yards in. What I have normally seen is shooters shooting at targets btwn five to seven yards, and taking their time carefully aiming with all sorts of grips, mind you, spraying the targets with no discernible pattern or intended grouping as if they are pleased they hit the target at all. This suggests to me they have not had any training to know how to shoot proficiently, let alone know they need to be able to obtain a particular score of any kind.
This is exactly what I see too though quite a few try to shoot as fast as they can, typically when they have a friend along to try and impress, disregarding range rules and they are lucky to get half their shots on a large target at 5 yards but seem pleased that they hit the target at all. :rolleyes:

Now that I am retired I only go earlier on week days and in general people I see then shoot better and are much safer in gun handling practices. On weekends I am amazed no one gets shot and am grateful for the bullet proof dividers between lanes.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Reading this I don't feel so bad..I have 2 buddies who are excellent ( did I say EXCELLENT?) shots so I base my progress on them ( bad idea)....

I try to stay within 5-7 yards because I'm still learning...

At 25 yards? Dunno... Maybe I'd do better as I'd really have to focus....
Do I want to get better!? Heck yeah but I shoot for fun and of I ever (God forbid) have to really defend myself..I know it'll be at less than 5 yds

And.. Watching " most" people around me at the range.. They are like me.. They suck

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 
#16 ·
I have no reason to train or bother shooting at that distance. I train up to 7 yards and that's it. My training is for self defense not target shooting. Shooting at someone at that distance you would have a hard time calling it SD if you found yourself in court.
 
#42 ·
My training is for self defense not target shooting. Shooting at someone at that distance you would have a hard time calling it SD if you found yourself in court.
Not true actually. Quoted from a Massad Ayoob article:

“YOU CAN NEVER JUSTIFY SHOOTING A MAN MORE THAN 7/15/25 YARDS AWAY!”

"I don’t mean to insult anyone, but this statement flunks the litmus test for cluelessness. By definition, if you were able to shoot him at that distance, he was able to shoot you at that distance.

In 1867, Dave Tutt opened fire on Wild Bill Hickok across the town square in Springfield, Missouri. Hickok carefully aimed his .36 caliber Navy Colt two-handed and shot Tutt through the heart, killing him. The ruling: Justified.

Fast-forward about a century to 1966. Charles Whitman began a murder spree by firing his scoped rifle from atop a 330-foot clock tower in Austin, Texas, killing people hundreds of yards away. When police .38s and buckshot proved impotent at that distance, private citizens on the ground returned fire on Whitman with hunting rifles and target rifles. Whitman was forced to take cover and stop shooting. Armed citizen Allen Crum then led Austin policemen Houston McCoy and Ramiro Martinez to the top of the tower. Crum fired the first shot of the encounter (which may have broken Whitman’s planned ambush of the officers), and McCoy and Martinez shot Whitman dead. Martinez later publicly credited the armed citizens with stopping the killing. They became heroes, not defendants.

Fast-forward again to Brownwood, Texas, in 2012. A man went berserk and began killing his neighbors. When the first responding officer arrived, the killer pinned him down with a .30-30 rifle. Armed citizen Vic Stacy shot the gunman from some 65 yards away with a Colt Python .357 Magnum revolver, wounding him badly enough that the officer could take control and finish the fight, killing the killer. Far from becoming a defendant, the heroic citizen was presented with a fine rifle by appreciative Texas Governor Rick Perry."

From 5 Gunfighting Myths Debunked By Massad Ayoob
5 Gunfighting Myths Debunked By Massad Ayoob
 
#18 ·
Don't shoot 25yds yet. Mostly 5, 7, and 15yds with 2 hand grip. At 15yds I can, P224 9mm, get all 12 shots on an 8.5 x 11 target with at least 3 in the 2" bullseye. Old guy with bad eyes and drink to much coffee :lol:

Peter
 
#19 ·
I'm at the range 2-3 times a week and many of the folks of all ages and both sexes I see there can't shoot their handguns with any degree of accuracy at almost any range down to 5 yards.

Lots of them try to "make up" for lack of skills by rapidly depleting their high capacity magazines in the direction of their target.

Sad but true.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sigarms228
#21 · (Edited)
Last Sunday while at the indoor range, I put up my target and took it out to 15 yards. I then readied my weapon and took aim The first thing I saw was three holes already in my virgin target. I brought it back for inspection. Three holes just barely on paper on the right side. I shrugged and run the target back out to 15 and started my session.

That is a good example of the average shooter I see at my local range. I might not always group in the X ring but I sure keep my shots on my target.

I shot religiously back in the seventies and eighties and then was away from the sport until a few years back. I was shocked how lousy I shot on my return. Shooting is not like riding a bicycle. To be proficient one needs to shoot regularly. The average shooter doesn't shoot nearly often enough to gain any sort of skill set. That and the fact that the average shooter is out to have fun with the wife and kids. They bought a gun or rented one and are just having a blast. No discipline in their shooting... just some good times and laughs.

Back in the day I belonged to a bullseye club. We shot 25 and 50 yards, rim fire, center fire over .32 cal, and 45 under time with one hand. Serious shooting by serious gunners. I tried to hang with those guys but I was definitely on the trying hard but suck list. Most of those guys would have picked up their stuff and went home if they saw three holes in their target before they started shooting.
 
#23 ·
I may be an "average" shooter but I consider my shooting to be far below par for what I want. I used to shoot mostly at 5-10 yards and felt my shooting was adequate. Until I tried Steel Challenge. For me hitting a target with a handgun at up to 35 yards is indeed a challenge. But a challenge I am determined to meet. But judging from the results of my latest match yesterday, I still have a LONG way to go. [emoji849]
 
#25 ·
Lemme throw in my 2 cents. Mind you, I shoot for fun and enjoyment. I all so carry 24/7, where legal. I am also retired form the Army (24 1/2 yrs) ant Law Enforcement (over 30 yrs).

First of all, I don't normally shoot 25 yds as I (IMO) don't think 25 yds is "defensive" shooting, rather offensive. Out 25 yds is long gun territory. My shooting is usually 3-5-7-15 yds. At this distance, I think I shoot very well. More rapid fire, I tend to move out in the #9 ring a bit, but usually keep in ther 10 area. This is one example at 10 yds with a .45.

The second is 50 rds at 3-5-7-10-15 yds with a new 9mm I am trying out.
Since my cataract operation on both eyes, I may be able to tighten the grouping up a bit. We shall see.:)



 
#26 ·
So, I was looking through some posts on another forum and came across a review I did when I got my Glock 43 when they first came out.

After getting a feel for the pistol I was impressed with its accuracy and decided to see what it was capable of at longer distances. I stuck a paper plate up at 25 yards and took five shots offhand taking my time.

Here was my view of the target at twenty-five yards.



And here are the five shots I took at the plate. Not too bad for such a small pistol.



Perhaps I'll try something similar with a full size pistol next time I'm out and see what the results are.
 
#31 ·
That's what a target should look like at 7 yards. Mighty fine shooting.
 
#29 ·
I think this is a question most of us ask ourselves. The unasked question is will I survive an exchange of fire if, God forbid, I was in that situation. This is the way I try to process that question.

These are my opinions said with respect for the experience of others. I don't want to get into a chest beating contest about it.

I served in the infantry in Vietnam during a pretty difficult period of time. I qualified as expert in three firearms before going.

The current technique at the time when engaging the enemy was to lay down a field of fire, not aim and shoot. I found out pretty fast that when the poop hits the fan you are rarely going to be in a position to be precise like you would on a range. I'm not discounting range practice. I am suggesting that point and shoot is a good thing to think about and practice.

I believe I would probably want to get off a several round burst with the hope of hitting the target anywhere. When someone receives serious trauma to the body it puts them at a disadvantage. Human nature will make that person start thinking of self preservation more and doing bad things to others less.

In defense of this position I would ask you to think about anytime you've been injured or been in serious pain. Even a toothache takes people out of the realm of rational thought. Even if I don't take the bad guy out the advantage for the rest of the time will be mine, assuming I'm not hit too.

I realize that a counter argument is adrenalin, drug usage and a number of scenarios by the shooter. I agree and counter by asking you to consider the high number of hypotheticals in any kind of an exchange of fire. How are you protected? How agile are you? Are you with your family? What environment are you in? Who and what is behind the target? My point is that you do the best you can at the time. We can't choose the time of place of such an encounter.

I think the advantage we have is that most of these guys are self serving cowards, while we would be fighting for our lives and our families. I am convinced that gives us the psychological edge.

I guess I've gone a little farther than the original question. I will go to the range when I have the time and money. Very few of us will ever be experts at the kind of things we may face. That's Hollywood, not real life. If I find myself in a gun battle I'll point and shoot a two or three round burst hoping for a first hit body shot and go from there.
 
#32 ·
From the perspective of someone who shoots a minimum of twice a week and occasionally three times a week, most people don't shoot very well at all.

It's rare to see someone who can even hold a 10" group at 5 yards, let alone a good group at longer yardage.

I can understand it though, as shooting is definitely not cheap. Neither is your life, but a lot of people have neither the time nor the money to practice multiple times a month.
 
#34 ·
I have not shot at 25 yards since I retired 6 years ago and even then it was braced against a barrier for most shots.

At 68 yoa my eyes aren't what they used to be so I am satisfied with a 10 inch group at 15 yards.

I do shoot at least once every 2 weeks and from what I see at our local range an average group of 12 inches at 7 yards seems to be the norm.
 
#43 ·
+1

I see so many guys at the indoor & outdoor range who i know can't see the target at 12 yards never mind 25-yards (check hits with binoculars!).

Someone else mentioned 25-yards is "offensive" shooting and that is a fact.

I can see shooting 25-yards at ranges that unfortunately force it or steel (safety with bad steel) but not as a assessment of someone's shooting ability (as per the OP "how well does the average handgunner shoot").

Things i consider paramount of importance in terms of "shooting ability" include
* safe unholster (no sweeps, finger off trigger etc.)

* ability to fire 5+ shots on target in approx. 5 seconds (1-Mississippi, 2-Mississippi, etc.) without altering the grip or moving any fingers except the trigger finger.

* ability to make clear

nothing good can happen shooting a pistol at 25-yards in the USA (this includes law inforcement) so to assess that as any type of skill or attribute is self-defeating IMHO.
 
#36 · (Edited)
I consider myself average or below average compared pistol shooters, but usually better than most people at the range. At a public indoor range I frequent (where non gun owners can pay to rent a pistol) I'm usually much better than many of the other shooters, and almost always the only person who regularly shoots at 25 yards. In competition I'm usually one of the worst with my pistol and one of the best with my rifle or shotgun (in multigun). That being said, I generally have no problem keeping my shots on a 12" target at 25 yards with a p226. I will say that slow repetitive destruction of paper isn't my favorite kind of shooting.

I've done a couple 3 gun matches with a 50 yard pistol stage. 10 shots on a 15" steel plate at 50 yards. I'll burn through most of a 20 round mag to get 10 hits in under 20 seconds. Good shooters will have 10 consecutive hits in half that time. At this particular club I've heard that they previously ran this stage at 100 yards but most of the shooters struggled to hit the 15" plate with their pistol at that distance so they shortened the stage.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top