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How many rounds would you like to carry after watching this video?

  • 5

    Votes: 5 2.4%
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    Votes: 3 1.5%
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    Votes: 1 0.5%
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    Votes: 7 3.4%
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    Votes: 1 0.5%
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    Votes: 19 9.2%
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    Votes: 5 2.4%
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    Votes: 17 8.3%
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    Votes: 3 1.5%
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    Votes: 20 9.7%
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    Votes: 8 3.9%
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    Votes: 7 3.4%
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    Votes: 4 1.9%
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    Votes: 0 0.0%
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    Votes: 5 2.4%
  • More than 20

    Votes: 101 49.0%

"How Much Capacity Is Enough For Private Citizen Gunfights? (ASP Compilation)" video and POLL

13K views 247 replies 103 participants last post by  Mattyice572 
#1 ·
Discussion starter · #44 ·
It really depends on why you carry. If you are carrying to defend yourself against an armed robbery or car jacking and, If you plan on bugging out if you encounter a school/mass shooter with a long gun then small 6-10 round gun is more than enough. If you’re planning on defending children or victims in the case of a lunatic with a rifle, a mid to large sized pistol with at least 15 and a spare mag would obviously be better. Realistically most people don’t carry full sized duty guns. And unfortunately a lot of people carry guns that are so small they probably couldn’t get good hits if they had to anyway. Life is all about balance.
I think the first parts of what you talked about were what most of us probably felt similarly, but after watching the video, it sort of shifted up. Did you watch it?
 
Discussion starter · #46 · (Edited)
One thing Jon said in the video I posted is that after reviewing thousands of videos now, what he's noticed is that people tend to shoot what they have in the gun. In other words, they're not reloading or reaching for a second gun. I remember him saying years ago in another video that it took him 1,600 videos before he saw a mag change, and he commented in this one that the mag change was done by a cop (trained as much). That said, they're just firing what they have loaded and stopping when they're out of bullets. So in essence, the outcome may be determined by the capacity of the gun and not in terms of carrying extra magazines in a smaller capacity firearm, for example (unless you're highly trained and going for the reload under pressure).

I also think what Massad Ayoob said was right in the other video posted above. The criminals are getting smarter. They're wearing body armour, they're outflanking law enforcement and making better use of cover (and forcing them out from cover), and more criminals are working in tandem than before.

I also agree with Oldrider that I should have worded it differently. Perhaps I should have made the distinction between what the minimum number of rounds you want to carry versus how many rounds are in the gun, but I didn't stop to think people might include extra mags (especially after Jon's comment). I really meant this in terms of the latter (minimum pistol capacity).

And after seeing the Massad Ayoob video (thank you HowardZ), I'm more of the mind more-is-better than I've been in the past. As such, I think I'm favoring my P229 with 14+1 rounds of .357 SIG or my Beretta PX4 Storm Compact with 19+1 which, believe it or not, conceals acceptably in nothing but a t-shirt (I can't say it completely disappears, but most people wouldn't notice it in my opinion).

After watching some of the scenarios in the video and hearing what Massad Ayoob said, I'd rather 15 rounds of .357 SIG over 18 rounds of 9mm, but I'd rather 20 rounds of 9mm over merely 16 or even 18 rounds of 9mm. That's just my take. But it takes 2 rounds on average to stop someone with .357 and 3 with 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP (An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association). If you do the math, that's 15 rounds of .357 Ă· 2 = 7.5 or 7 people versus 20 rounds of 9mm Ă· 3 = 6.67 or 6 people. It's very close one way or another, but 16 rounds of 9mm (15+1 like a G19 or P320 compact)Ă· 3 = only 5.33 or 5 people. I'm not trying to imply you'll be attacked by 6-7 people in a "flash mob" (Massad Ayoob's example), but I'm just showing the potential of the calibers & capacities. On the other end, you can empty a mag in someone hopped up on drugs faster shooting 15 rounds of 65 gr. .357 Underwood XD than 20 rounds of the 9mm equivelent.

Air gun Trigger Wood Gun barrel Gun accessory
 
Discussion starter · #56 ·
Psychological factors are also significant in a gunfight, and that's partially why I also favor .357 SIG and even 10mm, especially when loaded with Underwood XD rounds. We have all heard the loud gun rapports at the range, and they can be unnerving especially when you're not expecting the rapport from such guns. XD bullets are light, fast, pack a lot of punch and they're loud. When people are hopped up on drugs or otherwise totally committed to killing you, having the loudest, fastest & most powerful rounds (within reason) with "high" capacity just seems like a winning combination to me. Anyone on the receiving end of an XD .357 or 10mm XD bullet is going to hear something extremely loud that also hits harder than any 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP bullet. I like .357 SIG especially. These XD rounds are rated at 2,100 fps muzzle velocity with 637 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy. The rapport is particularly substantial for a carry gun. It sounds like a hand cannon, yet the fast lightweight bullets are low recoil (high muzzle blast) rounds. For psychological reasons I want it to sound like armageddon if I have to empty a magazine at my attackers.
 
Discussion starter · #93 ·
Spot on sir. This is why I have always maintained that practice is key over caliber size. The more accurate I am doing drills, then it gives me a better chance at hitting my target in a real situation because I already know that I will not be as accurate with the adrenaline flowing. Accuracy also suffers the larger the caliber you shoot no matter who you are.
I agree, but just remember, caliber size and training on fundamentals to get rounds on target quickly are not mutually exclussive. Personally I am not for increasing the diameter too much over 9mm (I like .355"-.40", for example). I think velocity & energy are key, and that's why I am a fan of light fast bullets (e.g. 65 gr. Underwood XD .357 rounds rated at 2,100 ft. per second muzzle velocity and 637 ft. lbs of muzzle energy. Recoil is negligible (even if the muzzle blast is great), the bullets arrive more quickly and the energy results in fewer rounds necessary to deliver slightly better incapacitation and more frequent one-stop-shots.
 
Discussion starter · #165 ·
Your math/equation does not seem to take into account the number of missed shots.
Ayoob, according to what I read, is an experienced gunfighter. Inexperienced gun professionals/LEOs and civilians will not have the same hit efficiency rating (or confidence).
From the news videos that I see, the days of being attacked by one assailant are drawing to a close. Like wolves, the "bad guys" hunt in packs.
It's not supposed to. It's like ballistic gel testing (which is not meant to simulate actual penetration in a human body). It's merely to do an apples to apples comparison between calibers.
 
Discussion starter · #187 ·
One thing we should all take into consideration regarding Jon's (Active Self-Protection) video is that he appears to be cherry-picking a handful of videos out of THOUSANDS of others he's reviewed over time. Like I said earlier, he looked through 1,600 videos before he saw a mag change (and it was an LEO). I only mention this again to point out that his video making this point was quite a few years ago, so he's reviewed and posted thousands of videos, and to pull out this handful with his examples having lower round counts until he could eventually find one that had 17 rounds sounds a bit spurious to me.

In other words, the nature of this video has magnified the issue many times over in my opinion. The 17-round incident, for example (by a competitive shooter no less), is probably more of an outlier than something we could reasonably expect. I'm not saying you/we shouldn't hope for the best and prepare for the worst, but Jon is also selling self-defense training. If you go to a baker they're going to want to bake for you. If you go to a surgeon they're going to want to cut you. If you go to a firearms trainer, they're going to want to train you or sell training products, and they often go a bit too far in their assessment about what is an important consideration in my opinion.
 
Discussion starter · #231 ·
Regardless of the video, as I mentioned in another thread, I combine what is possible, with what is probable and then add some common sense and carry 12-15 in my EDC and have a higher capacity magazine, typically 15 to 19, readily available (if not on me). My two most common EDCs are a P365XL with 12 and 15 round magazines or a P229 Elite with 15 and 17.
I agree. And if you read my later comments in this thread, I basically said Jon was magnifying the issue by cherry picking his data.
 
Discussion starter · #232 ·
Regardless of the video, as I mentioned in another thread, I combine what is possible, with what is probable and then add some common sense and carry 12-15 in my EDC and have a higher capacity magazine, typically 15 to 19, readily available (if not on me). My two most common EDCs are a P365XL with 12 and 15 round magazines or a P229 Elite with 15 and 17.
If I am carrying 9mm (e.g. my PX4 Storm Compact), I still prefer carrying 16-20 rounds. When I'm carrying my P229 chambered in .357 SIG, I'm fine with 13 to 15 rounds because on average it takes fewer rounds to incapacitate with that caliber compared to 9mm and .40 S&W. I'm even fine leaving the extra mags at home most of the time. Statistically we just don't see many mag changes in videos, even when it's to clear a malfunction.
 
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