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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I fied this 5-shot group at 25 yards at my recent range session, even after I choked on that 5th shot after watching the 4 shots first form that nice 0.63" group:

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I wish I (as opposed to the pistol) was good enough to do this ALL the time, but sadly, I am not. I am able to hold the pistol pretty steadily on a carpeted 6" block on the shooting bench, but 70 year old eyes looking through progressive bifocal eyeglasses is not a winning optical setup! :)

By the way, this is a 115g 1300+fps handload, not a powderpuff load.

The SIG P210A can SHOOT.

Jim G
 

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Jim,

Since we're "beating our chests", this is my 10 shot, off-hand group at 15 yards with my P210 Target (and my 70 year old eyes). I've posted this before. The "X" ring of a Bullseye target is about 1.6 inches. I'll use a sandbag rest when I try for my best 50 & 100 yards groups. Covid put a cramp in my range time.
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Pretty nice shooting! Over 70 here too and can appreciate the targets and skill.
Thank you.
The younger generation doesn't seem to have the patience for bullseye shooting. If they can hit an 8 inch plate at 7 yards they're happy. I enjoy "action" shooting but if a handgun can't group well at 25 yards I lose interest.
Used to be very good with a rifle. Almost made the army rifle team back in the early 70s. But now, with open sights, I can barely score at 100 yards what I used to at 300 meters (back in the 70 they were trying to "metrify" us).
I can still do pretty well with a handgun and open sights at 50 yards, at least on a good day.
 

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Excellent shooting. Congrats.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
One of the reasons I even try to do this type of precision shooting is because I finally have another firearm that can actually do it. Like Jack#9, I see that too many shooters seem satisfied with firearms that can shoot at best 2 or 3 inch groups at 25 yards, and also seem satisfied with being able to hit large targets at short ranges. And if they reload, their standards for the accuracy of their loads are, to me, low.

I think a lot of the difference between me and those kinds of shooters come down to a few basics:

- I appreciate firearms that are high quality in design and build, and can deliver high quality results.

- I like to set high standards for my own performance in anything I do (hence shooting 9mm groups with 115g bullets at 1300+ fps, not powderpuff loads, and assembling ammunition with low dimensional variances).

- I find precision shooting very relaxing, and while I also appreciate other shooting disciplines, like IPSC (for its real world simulation), Cowboy Action Shooting (for its historical, humour, and costuming aspects), and Metallic Silhouette (for its challenge). But when I want to relax, I do that best with precision shooting. I find I can easily spend hours on the range attempting precision shooting, and the time flies by.

I recognize that many shooters are instead seeking adrenaline, and that the younger folks raised on computer action games naturally move into the most similar firearm sports, and that maybe trying for precision in tools, components, and technique takes the relaxation OUT for them. I don't criticize those shooters. They are getting what they want to get out of shooting.

But for me, seeing sub-one inch groups from a handgun at 25 yards is a relaxing thrill. I've only ever had a handful of handguns that could do that, and the SIG P210A Target model is the very best so far.

Interestingly, the previous pistols I've had that could come closest were relatively tiny "chopped and channeled" (3 inch barrels and 3-finger grip lengths) custom-level forged alloy Caspian-based pistols that were works of art built by Fred Craig, when he was building pistols. Fred had nice high standards. But, his pistols were low volume specials, while the P210A Target can be bought by anyone who really wants one. My hat's off to SIG.

Jim G
 

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I fied this 5-shot group at 25 yards at my recent range session, even after I choked on that 5th shot after watching the 4 shots first form that nice 0.63" group:

The SIG P210A can SHOOT.

Jim G
Are you 100% sure??

...coz' I read on the interwebzz (Facebook SIG groups, here on SigTalk as well as the other forum) from 'Sig-self-proclaimed keyboard experts" that US-Made P210 guns are quite inferior to their German ...and especially Swiss cousins ;)


....all kidding aside, ....well done - fantastic GROUPING !!...and I truly enjoyed reading your latest reply just above mine. I guess because I am wired in a similar way, lol.... I am not much of a run-and-gun type of guy either. My OCD also draws me more towards slow paced precision type of shooting.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Are you 100% sure??

...coz' I read on the interwebzz (Facebook SIG groups, here on SigTalk as well as the other forum) from 'Sig-self-proclaimed keyboard experts" that US-Made P210 guns are quite inferior to their German ...and especially Swiss cousins ;)


....all kidding aside, ....well done - fantastic GROUPING !!...and I truly enjoyed reading your latest reply just above mine. I guess because I am wired in a similar way, lol.... I am not much of a run-and-gun type of guy either. My OCD also draws me more towards slow paced precision type of shooting.
Another thing I like about the P210A is the "Americanization" of the controls - the location and action of the safety and the mag release, and the SAO trigger. Having fired 1911 format pistols mostly in the past, I find that these features take advantage of a lot of muscle memory, and enable VERY quick magazine changes.

I also like that the safety can be engaged regardless of hammer and slide status. I leave it on when cleaning the frame and trigger and when checking slide action after cleaning. It just makes me feel warm and fuzzy safe.

And I like that the pistol can be carried cocked and locked, and be lightning fast to deploy, even though my being here in Canada now prohibits both concealed and open carry, and requires a permit to take the handgun to the range in a locked, opaque, and hidden-from-view case (Yes, it is the law here these days, and like most firearms owners, I am law abiding). You never know when the Apocalypse might come and concealed carry and quick presentation could become an important social skill. :)

Jim G
 

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That's awesome! Looks like you made those triangles on Word? Funny, I have the same ones I made and found if I invert the shape, it's the exact width as the front sight as I see it at 25 yards. It seemed to help me with sighting.
 

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Thank you.
The younger generation doesn't seem to have the patience for bullseye shooting. If they can hit an 8 inch plate at 7 yards they're happy. I enjoy "action" shooting but if a handgun can't group well at 25 yards I lose interest.
Used to be very good with a rifle. Almost made the army rifle team back in the early 70s. But now, with open sights, I can barely score at 100 yards what I used to at 300 meters (back in the 70 they were trying to "metrify" us).
I can still do pretty well with a handgun and open sights at 50 yards, at least on a good day.
Bullseye is for old people 😝.

@Jim, good job! Thanks for posting up results of your shoooting after making all the changes in your reloading.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
That's awesome! Looks like you made those triangles on Word? Funny, I have the same ones I made and found if I invert the shape, it's the exact width as the front sight as I see it at 25 yards. It seemed to help me with sighting.
Actually, "Pages" on the Mac, but same idea. And yes, those triangles are the miniature paper version of the actual 6" inverted triangles, printed by laser printer on 8.5 x 11 paper, that I use as targets. The aimpoint is the bottommost point of the triangle. The point makes it easier for me to center the front sight on the triangle, I use a different point of impact than point of aim so that I do not blast the point away as I shoot.

Jim G
 

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Discussion Starter #12
@Jim, good job! Thanks for posting up results of your shoooting after making all the changes in your reloading.
Yes, it's finally coming together. Interestingly, the SD and SE for muzzle velocity are still very bad. On the day this target was shot, SD was 21 and SE was 93! As I said before in a prior thread: "Go figure".

I think it is the use of the very slow Vihtavuori 3N38 powder causing that, as both QuickLOAD and GRT predict that only 70% of the powder burns before the bullet exits the muzzle.

But when the best groups are this good at 25 yards, and the AVERAGE size of ALL groups fired that day was 1.28" INCLUDING the flyers, AND I get an average muzzle velocity over 1300 fps, AND there is no visible muzzle flash, no way will I change powders! :)

Jim G
 

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Yes, it's finally coming together. Interestingly, the SD and SE for muzzle velocity are still very bad. On the day this target was shot, SD was 21 and SE was 93! As I said before in a prior thread: "Go figure".

I think it is the use of the very slow Vihtavuori 3N38 powder causing that, as both QuickLOAD and GRT predict that only 70% of the powder burns before the bullet exits the muzzle.

But when the best groups are this good at 25 yards, and the AVERAGE size of ALL groups fired that day was 1.28" INCLUDING the flyers, AND I get an average muzzle velocity over 1300 fps, AND there is no visible muzzle flash, no way will I change powders! :)

Jim G
Wow! Those ES and SD’s are high. I never got an SD over 15 using N320 and Sport pistol with my CZ Czechmate and TSO. The TSO is the closest pistol I can compare with the P210 because of the same “slide inside the rail” construction, Single action trigger and ergonomics. I suggest playing with the COAL and/or powder charge to find out the sweet spot.

Then again, with accuracy at 1.28” @ 25 yards, I wouldn’t worry much with the numbers. However, having a lot of time in your hands can help in reaching that “perfect” recipe.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Wow! Those ES and SD’s are high. I never got an SD over 15 using N320 and Sport pistol with my CZ Czechmate and TSO. The TSO is the closest pistol I can compare with the P210 because of the same “slide inside the rail” construction, Single action trigger and ergonomics. I suggest playing with the COAL and/or powder charge to find out the sweet spot.

Then again, with accuracy at 1.28” @ 25 yards, I wouldn’t worry much with the numbers. However, having a lot of time in your hands can help in reaching that “perfect” recipe.
I've tested a number of different COALs, and the SD and ES don't improve. The 8.0 grains of 3N38 was the best load in terms of group size when I tested 7.4, 7.6, 7.8, 7.9, 8.0, and 8.1 grains at the 1.142" COAL that Vihtavuori stated in its load table. I may next try incrementally more powder - 8.2 grains and a bit more maybe, but not much, as I don't want a high pressure load (VV load table says that the 8.7 grain maximum load gets you to 1401 fps, which is a power factor of 115 x 1401/1000 = 161 which is pretty close to 9 Major! I don't want the high pressure that must be associated with that load!

Jim G
 

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Discussion Starter #18
David: You and I have the same problem: The P210A shoots GREAT, but we too often shoot 4 good shots and 1 flyer! Humans are SO imperfect compared to their firearms . . .

Jim G
 

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Sounds to me like all of you are now ready for a CZ Shadow 2 !!!:):)
Just sayin'
Not sure I am following. This thread is about 'accuracy'.
I have have SH2, SH2 modified with bushing by Cajun and third SH2 Orange with Factory bushing as well as a few P201As. I can assure you that SH2 will not come even close to accuracy at 25y or more vs. P210s when shooting of a rest (which I tried) or Ransom rest (which I have not tried).

FYI, of the three Shadow 2s mentioned above, the one with Cajun 10X bushing performed the best and had the tightest groups.
 
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