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I just bought two P238’s this week. I do hate the safety. In talking to a retired LE type that works at the range I go said
he keeps a round in the barrel with the hammer down (no safety). He has done this for many years in his pocket.
Reading found a guy that has no round in the barrel but racking the slide while drawing from concealment.
Guys I really don’t want the safety so what do you think of the two above ways to carry in pocket? Or another but w/o the safety.
Thank you
As mentioned, I don't recommend carrying a single action gun with a chambered round hammer down in the pocket. If you were carrying it in a belt holster it would be a little different, but not in the pocket. As to carrying Israeli style, no round in the chamber, I've always said it is insane to do so, but I've recently changed my mind on that. It all depends on you, the individual. If you watch some Israeli operators, they're pretty damn quick with it, but they train...A LOT! If you're willing to train to that carry method then you should be fine in most cases. The process will be a little slower since you're having to retrieve the gun from a pocket, but it's really not going to matter under most conditions anyway. It's not like we're all smooth operators. :D
 

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Even the Israeli Carry can get a highly trained Israeli policeman nearly killed:- Watch as Israeli carry nearly gets an Israeli Police Officer stabbed to death | Prepared Gun Owners
How would the average person cope in this situation?
The average person is as likely to get killed either way. If you don't train you're not going to perform very well regardless, so why would anyone think they have a better chance with a round in the chamber? What's the old saying...when faced with adverse circumstances, you will not rise to the occasion. You will default to the level of training you have mastered. Something like that.
 

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I've seen a video, maybe on this forum, of a man and his son both getting fatally shot in a robbery because the man had a gun but did not have a round in the chamber. He couldn't rack one in while under pressure of the robbery.

Guns are dangerous tools and must be handled carefully at all times. Remember, and ALWAYS follow The Ten Commandments of Firearm Safety.

If you are uncomfortable with your firearm or the way you carry it Cease and Desist Immediately, there is no shame in that. Find another gun or another method.

Not all people are able to carry firearms. Not all people are cut out to play professional sports. Everyone's not cut out to be a brain surgeon. Do what you can do well and try to excel at those things.

Happy Trails.
I saw that same video. From what I could see it did not look to me that the man was adept. He looked to me like he had never trained beyond target practice for accuracy at the range. I would be willing to bet the average Israeli special operator would have won that confrontation.
 
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Bc I think it is inherently unsafe. I'm not a fan of SA guns in the pocket at all, but putting a round in the chamber, lowering the hammer in a small gun, and slipping it into the pocket just doesn't set well with me. Why did you ask me instead of the others who advised against it?


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The OP was the one that talked about lowering the hammer not me. If you read back you'll see I said it was meant to be carried cocked and locked. You said single actions are unsafe in the pocket but are safe in a belt holster. That was the statement I was questioning as I think it is false. The purchase on the safety of my 938 required me to smooth and loosen up so I could manipulate it at all with just my thumb. It is very tight and a pocket holster completely covers the trigger. It is as safe in the pocket as it is on the belt.
 

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The OP was the one that talked about lowering the hammer not me. If you read back you'll see I said it was meant to be carried cocked and locked. You said single actions are unsafe in the pocket but are safe in a belt holster. That was the statement I was questioning as I think it is false. The purchase on the safety of my 938 required me to smooth and loosen up so I could manipulate it at all with just my thumb. It is very tight and a pocket holster completely covers the trigger. It is as safe in the pocket as it is on the belt.


In your opinion. Mine is different. And that's ok.


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Looks like I misread your first post on the subject, sorry. I agree hammer down is not the way to carry any single action 1911 type platform anyway, anytime and said so earlier in the thread. I do carry my 938 C&L'ed in a Desantis pocket holster as the trigger is covered and a fair amount of force is required to take the safety off.
 

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Looks like I misread your first post on the subject, sorry. I agree hammer down is not the way to carry any single action 1911 type platform anyway anytime and said so earlier in the thread. I do carry my 938 C&L'ed in a Desantis pocket holster as the trigger is covered and a fair amount of force is required to take the safety off.

No worries. I agree, cocked and locked is the way to carry one, unless one chooses to carry without a round in the chamber.


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As mentioned, I don't recommend carrying a single action gun with a chambered round hammer down in the pocket. If you were carrying it in a belt holster it would be a little different, but not in the pocket.
IMO, it's not so much an issue of where you carry the pistol with the hammer down on a chambered round, it's the act of lowering the hammer on a chambered round that is inherently unsafe.
 

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IMO, it's not so much an issue of where you carry the pistol with the hammer down on a chambered round, it's the act of lowering the hammer on a chambered round that is inherently unsafe.


I agree. It's just a little less unsafe on the hip in terms of deploying the gun as opposed to having to reach in a pocket, purchase the gun, deploy it without getting shot either by a BG or yourself.


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I took a defensive shooting class where I shot my P238 for the first half of the day and my Browning High Power the second half. The safety on the P238 was a killer on my thumb after a couple of hours. A few rounds, safety on then off, repeat over and over. The problem was not taking the safety off it was putting it on. It wore a hole in my thumb.
When not doing drills I put the safety on with my left hand.
 

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I took a defensive shooting class where I shot my P238 for the first half of the day and my Browning High Power the second half. The safety on the P238 was a killer on my thumb after a couple of hours. A few rounds, safety on then off, repeat over and over. The problem was not taking the safety off it was putting it on. It wore a hole in my thumb.
When not doing drills I put the safety on with my left hand.
When I first got my 938 I didn't have strength enough in my strong side thumb to put the safety on and I had to use my left hand to engage. I did just a little smoothing with 600 grit sand paper , cleaned it off and then put some TW25B grease on it and worked it on and off repeatedly. Eventually it loosened enough so I could engage with the thumb. Taking it off safe was never much of a problem and it is still plenty stiff to prevent accidentally taking it off safe.
 

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The second option is known as "Israeli Carry". You train to draw and rack while in motion to train on your target. It CAN be fast once you're conditioned to do it, but it's not mechanically as fast as turning off the safety.

I don't agree with option 1 at all. Manually decocking the hammer while pulling the trigger is just unsafe as you disengage the firing pin block.
 

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Why all the hate on empty chamber "Israeli carry"
I admit that is the way I carry every day
Yes, its drawbacks are that it is 1 or 2 seconds slower, and it takes 2 hands and it is possible to fumble the slide rack
There is no doubt that it is safer as an empty chamber gun cannot have an accidental discharge
Think about this:
We are both ambushed and you take 1 second and I take 3 seconds to draw and fire
If our attacker kills us in less than one second then we are both dead
If he takes between 1 and 3 seconds, then you get a shot off and I dont
If he takes 3 seconds or more then we both get a shot at him
I accept the 2 second penalty in order to never have an accidental discharge
I practice all the time, drawing,racking moving and shooting
It works for the entire nation of Israel and they have shot plenty of terrorists and ordinary criminals
 

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As GCBH pointed out, the defender didn’t look to me to be very adept either, which is another way of saying, ya need plenty of good quality training and practice time to stay current. The other consideration as John (the ASP, video guy) points out in several of his “case studies”, waiting for the correct time to respond when a BG has the drop on you, is a critical decision to make in the moment. John frequently refers to this as knowing ‘when’ to launch the counter attack/ambush (sometimes he refers to it as, waiting your turn).

If you are not carrying with a round in the chamber, this “waiting your turn” becomes all the more critical of a decision to make. With hindsight being 20/20, I would suggest, the guy in the video did not adequately or correctly assess his response time, in getting his gun into action. It appears to me, he falls into that “1 and 3 seconds” response time. Had he had a round in the chamber, would he have been successful OR had he waited for a better time to launch the counter attack?
 

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Why all the hate on empty chamber "Israeli carry"
I admit that is the way I carry every day
Yes, its drawbacks are that it is 1 or 2 seconds slower, and it takes 2 hands and it is possible to fumble the slide rack
There is no doubt that it is safer as an empty chamber gun cannot have an accidental discharge
Think about this:
We are both ambushed and you take 1 second and I take 3 seconds to draw and fire
If our attacker kills us in less than one second then we are both dead
If he takes between 1 and 3 seconds, then you get a shot off and I dont
If he takes 3 seconds or more then we both get a shot at him
I accept the 2 second penalty in order to never have an accidental discharge
I practice all the time, drawing,racking moving and shooting
It works for the entire nation of Israel and they have shot plenty of terrorists and ordinary criminals
Like everything else practice helps but real world scenarios don't always go like practice. Adrenaline and stress are not factors you can always adequately replicate during practice.

To minimize the number of things that can go wrong and still have a true safety the cocked and locked seems best.

Another option (possibly the best if you absolutely cannot be comfortable with a round chambered) is a revolver with one chamber not loaded. Depending on the revolver you would have usually 4-7 chambers that are loaded. Your first pull will not do anything but you would keep pulling as needed. You could even have a blast cap for the first round also.

I would never personally do this but is an option. I do admit I never felt comfortable with my Glock 19 chambered which is why it sits in a desk drawer at the office until someone buys it. :)
 

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Why all the hate on empty chamber "Israeli carry"
I admit that is the way I carry every day
Yes, its drawbacks are that it is 1 or 2 seconds slower, and it takes 2 hands and it is possible to fumble the slide rack
There is no doubt that it is safer as an empty chamber gun cannot have an accidental discharge
Think about this:
We are both ambushed and you take 1 second and I take 3 seconds to draw and fire
If our attacker kills us in less than one second then we are both dead
If he takes between 1 and 3 seconds, then you get a shot off and I dont
If he takes 3 seconds or more then we both get a shot at him
I accept the 2 second penalty in order to never have an accidental discharge
I practice all the time, drawing,racking moving and shooting
It works for the entire nation of Israel and they have shot plenty of terrorists and ordinary criminals
You should carry as you feel is right for you.
Seems to me that most of the attacks in Israel have been with knifes or vehicles.
If with a knife there is more time to react certainly if more then one victim and sometimes with a vehicle.
 

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I too was not a fan of SAO. I have long wished for a 238/938 sized Sig DA/SA. But, alas, none exist. I tried most of the usual .380 pocket suspects--Kel Tec, Ruger LCP, Beretta, and my favorite pocket non-sig--the Diamondback .380. All had the same plus (size) and different minuses. I wanted to love and settle on the Diamondback (Pre Glock pocket size) but it had one little quirk I could not deal with--it does not go bang every time. So I tried the 238. At first I was like you, iffy on the safety. I tried other conditions of carry but in the end I just practiced, practiced. Now I am quite comfortable with it cocked and locked, it always goes bang, and goes with me literally everywhere (except post office, kids school/events). Not sure when the dislike of SAO left me, but it did.
 
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