[DCSigCZ]

I am looking into this for a friend.

Gray Guns site says P-MSS includes:
1. both our 17X and 19X mainsprings,
2. uprated firing pin return spring,
3. new-style competition safety lock spring, and
4. our competition sear spring.

Lower force mainsprings and sear springs make sense.

I talked to Gray Guns about the uprated firing return spring. They include it because of the lighter rated safety lock spring - makes it harder for the firing pin to move forward if the lighter safety lock spring has let the firing pin block move in. That makes sense, however, for pure firing reliability only (knowing that the firing pin safety function may be reduced), we'd want a lower power firing pin spring to go with a lower power hammer spring. The higher force firing pin spring does not affect trigger pull force, but it does make the possibility of light strikes higher when using a reduced power mainspring.

My question really revolves around the lower force safety lock spring - how much difference does it REALLY make to hammer pull force if both the lower force mainspring and sear spring are already installed? We've already installed the 19 lb. mainspring and lower power sear spring, just wondering if installing the lower force safety lock spring makes enough difference to bother installing it.

 

[Willard]

Probably not enough for you to feel with your finger, unless you have a built in strain gauge... but it would show on a digital gauge no doubt. Just as the "Sear spring" normally would be hard to feel the difference. The mainspring weight is the most noticeable, because of the long double action trigger pull, just as adequate lubrication may be felt where the trigger bar slides against the frame, and oiled pins and trigger bar/trigger connection.

 

[Malicious Compliance]

I agree with Willard, probably not noticeable with the bare finger. Remember, however, as you pull the trigger, the trigger bar is pulled forward, engaging the safety lever, which pivots up into the firing pin safety. A lighter safety lock spring will result is less force required to press in the firing pin safety.

 

[bumper]

I also agree with Willard and MC.

GG sources their springs from Wolff Gunsprings. Not sure if there are any exclusive arrangements going on, but at least most of the springs are available direct.

Before discussing this a bit more, there's a quick test for you to feel what's going on within your P-Series DA/SA: Dry fire, and while holding trigger back, push hammer all the way forward, against reset spring, and hold it there. Now cycle the trigger back and forth slowly . . . this allows you to feel the resistance without the mainspring tension and any friction from hammer/strut. As you start the pull, it is trigger bar (trigger return spring) only, and towards the end of the pull you will feel the slight staging of the sear spring and FP block plunger spring.

GGI's sear spring wire is slightly thinner than stock, but you can get the same "net effect" with the stock spring. Start by deburring and polishing the very tip of the bottom leg of this spring - where it bares against the sear (there is slight movement here, and a sharp wire tip is not what you want). Now, with a pair of pliers, grasp about 2/3rds of the upper leg of the spring and with fingers grasp the body of the spring, put a bend in the upper leg so the part that goes under the sear spring retaining pin will have a little less tension - something like a 15 degree bend will do, don't get carried away.

This mod will take some ounces off the trigger pull and slightly reduce staging - it is not nearly as effective as other changes in reducing trigger pull, but it still part a full action job. As with any such change, it's important to do a function check (20 slide slingshots with trigger held back - no hammer follows), and simulate cocked drop test (wrap gun in cloth and bonk it frame around with rubber mallet with attention mostly to muzzle and backstrap).

I purchase GGI's spring kit and used the light sear spring on one of my P229s. The firing pin rebound spring in the kit was actually stronger than SIG's stock one I checked it against, so would reduce primer indent - so I didn't bother with that. The light sear spring does nothing that a slight bend to the stock one doesn't do.

The FP safety plunger spring has only a slight effect on trigger pull due in part to the leverage advantage of the safety lever and this spring isn't all that strong to begin with.. One could tweak the length of the stock spring to reduce tension, though any slight reduced trigger pull/staging is hardly worth it, and if done wrong could adversely affect the reliability of the FPB safety due to gunk or whatever.

BTW, on that test to "feel" trigger, the last or other part of that test is to feel the hammer, strut and mainspring: While holding trigger full back, manually cock and slowly release hammer back and forth. Both these tests, besides feeling spring tension, allow you to feel for any friction areas that need addressing too.

 

[DCSigCZ]

Thank you for your replies. I will be performing the tests described in your responses tonight and advise you of my findings.

 

[BGOd42]

I also agree with Willard and MC.

GG sources their springs from Wolff Gunsprings. Not sure if there are any exclusive arrangements going on, but at least most of the springs are available direct.

Before discussing this a bit more, there's a quick test for you to feel what's going on within your P-Series DA/SA: Dry fire, and while holding trigger back, push hammer all the way forward, against reset spring, and hold it there. Now cycle the trigger back and forth slowly . . . this allows you to feel the resistance without the mainspring tension and any friction from hammer/strut. As you start the pull, it is trigger bar (trigger return spring) only, and towards the end of the pull you will feel the slight staging of the sear spring and FP block plunger spring.

GGI's sear spring wire is slightly thinner than stock, but you can get the same "net effect" with the stock spring. Start by deburring and polishing the very tip of the bottom leg of this spring - where it bares against the sear (there is slight movement here, and a sharp wire tip is not what you want). Now, with a pair of pliers, grasp about 2/3rds of the upper leg of the spring and with fingers grasp the body of the spring, put a bend in the upper leg so the part that goes under the sear spring retaining pin will have a little less tension - something like a 15 degree bend will do, don't get carried away.

This mod will take some ounces off the trigger pull and slightly reduce staging - it is not nearly as effective as other changes in reducing trigger pull, but it still part a full action job. As with any such change, it's important to do a function check (20 slide slingshots with trigger held back - no hammer follows), and simulate cocked drop test (wrap gun in cloth and bonk it frame around with rubber mallet with attention mostly to muzzle and backstrap).

I purchase GGI's spring kit and used the light sear spring on one of my P229s. The firing pin rebound spring in the kit was actually stronger than SIG's stock one I checked it against, so would reduce primer indent - so I didn't bother with that. The light sear spring does nothing that a slight bend to the stock one doesn't do.

The FP safety plunger spring has only a slight effect on trigger pull due in part to the leverage advantage of the safety lever and this spring isn't all that strong to begin with.. One could tweak the length of the stock spring to reduce tension, though any slight reduced trigger pull/staging is hardly worth it, and if done wrong could adversely affect the reliability of the FPB safety due to gunk or whatever.

BTW, on that test to "feel" trigger, the last or other part of that test is to feel the hammer, strut and mainspring: While holding trigger full back, manually cock and slowly release hammer back and forth. Both these tests, besides feeling spring tension, allow you to feel for any friction areas that need addressing too.

Hey Bumper, was curious and started rereading some old threads I saw way back. I'm curious as to how to visualize the sear spring bend you mentioned? Do you happen to have a picture of the bent sear spring alone and the bent sear spring installed?

 

[Willard]

Hey Bumper, was curious and started rereading some old threads I saw way back. I'm curious as to how to visualize the sear spring bend you mentioned? Do you happen to have a picture of the bent sear spring alone and the bent sear spring installed?

If bumper doesn't answer, you may send him a PM. IIRC I think he just bends ("calibrated") the leg "in" slightly where it contacts the pin relieving some tension. It would be a "one shot" attempt, as it's spring tempered.
Another possible "lightening" source, was people using a DAK Sear Spring which has lighter tension, IIRC.

 

[SAObill]

Regarding the sear spring, I used two needle nose pliers to twist the spring, torsionally around a nail held in the bench vise. Twisting it a few degrees beyond it’s normal travel, keeping track of the position of the two legs of the spring when relaxed. Twisting it a bit more each time until it’s taken a small “set”. The idea being similar to bumper’s bend: to reduce the force applied to the sear. This would reduce the wound diameter a bit, but it was still a loose fit around the pin. I thought I’d taken thorough notes but did not record what reduction in SA pull this made. From memory, I think it was a couple ounces.

Regarding the FPB spring, I installed a lighter spring (a portion of a longer spring from Brownells I think). This showed a reduction from 3lbs 7oz to 3lbs 4.9oz. These numbers an average of 10 pulls on a Lyman gauge. I don’t know how my spring compares to the Grayguns one however.

 

[SAObill]

Another thought about the FPB plunger/spring. It makes sense that by reducing the spring force, a lesser G-force would be required to produce unwanted movement of the plunger. I would think by reducing the mass of the plunger this effect could be countered. Why don’t we see plungers for sale made of aluminum or titanium? Is it out of liability concern and/or these materials are not tough enough?

 

[bumper]

The FPB plunger moves at a 90* axis to the firing pin that it is intended to block. In the event of a drop that would, without the FPB, cause an inertia discharge, I think it unlikely, maybe near impossible, for the gun to impact something at the required vector angle, or more likely two sequential impacts necessary to move the FPB first and then followed by the FP.

In the two impact scenario, the first impact would need to move the FPB clear and then somehow have it stay clear, then the second impact would need to move the FP forward with enough energy to ignite the primer. I'm saying two discreet impacts as a single vector impact would impart less energy to both parts, but more importantly would not move and clear the FPB first so that the FP would still be blocked by the plunder.

I've done no tests on the above, so that's a semi-educated WAG.

In practice, I've seen a worn safety lever that did not lift the FPB plunger high enough during a trigger pull to fire at all. Had another case where the FP impacted the FPB a glancing blow and still continued forward with enough energy to ignite the primer - usually. Sometimes it would FTF with a light strike, as the impact of the FP on the FPB plunger robbed the FP of the needed energy.

After an action job, I chamber a primed case, cock the gun, wrap it loosely in a towel, then beat the snot out of it with a rubber mallet from different directions (best to leave the grips off). Never had a primer go off on a Classic P.

 

[BGOd42]

I'm a bit surprised that I only noticed now that the Wolff 17lb spring seems to be a coil or so longer than the stock, AC and GGI mainsprings.

Despite this length however, it's tension for me seems to be comparable to a AC 17lb and 18lb (red and green).

One thing I didn't notice was that the GGI 17lb spring seems to be quite stiff, at least for 2 master spring kits I managed to get a hand on bought a little more than a year ago. Never really got to compare them side-by-side until today. Pull weights seem stiffer, and the tension when pinching also seems to concur.

I don't have any device to get quantitative data on the springs though, but I think it may be an interesting thing to look into. Seems like when I was running that 17lb GGI spring and not getting any light strikes at all, I could've possibly gotten a couple of "lemons" (though both packs were bought separately and months separated each purchase). Their 19lbs are stiffer but not as stiff as a TSA's 20lb. So I guess that's at least correct.

The GGI 17lb seems to be closer to AC's 19lb but not as soft.