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Evolution of the P226 grips/frame

1189 Views 24 Replies 5 Participants Last post by  Willard, 
TXGRunner
I am trying to understand the evolution of the P226 using old brochures, catalogs, online sources, and older threads on SigTalk.

~1984 - Developed for Joint Service Small Arms Program pistol trials to replace M1911
2010 - E2 revises grip ergonomics with deeper undercut beneath trigger guard
? - E2 discontinued, but new grip design added to other P226 models
2014 or earlier? - X5 series of competition guns (sort of race guns) released
? - deeper trigger guard undercut referred to as X5 cut
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I am sure some of that is incorrect because some of what I was reading seemed contradictory.

Are all P226s made after 2010 E2 frames?
Did the X5 introduce other ergonomic frame or grip changes, or just the E2?
Are all E2 frames US made and German frames pre-E2, or did both factories make both frames?
Except for stainless models, all P226s are alloy frames? Or were there some steel frames made in Germany?

I read on other threads, the grips are backwards compatible. So a modern grip panel should fit a 2020 production and 2010 production, but a 2010 production likely will not fit a 2020 production, correct? Does that relate to the changeover to E2 frames or to the X5 series or some other change?

If there's a kind of summary of the P226 development that answers most of these questions, I'd be very interested in reading it. I just want to have an idea of what is compatible or not, and narrow the definitions when a anyone refers to X5 or E2. I appreciate any help.
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Willard
No "summary" that I'm aware of, for either subject.

When you are talking about "Frame", are you talking about the whole frame, or just the grip of the frame?

Generally speaking, most 2 piece grips will fit earlier versions of mainspring assemblies, but not necessarily later versions. In the case of the E2 grips, they require the "E2" Strut assembly, as they were an attempt to lessen distance from the backstrap to the trigger.

As far a changes to the frames grip, the X-Series modification to allow the use of a bolt-on Magazine Well, was later included on Legion, and some Elite frames. This requires modification to the inletting of some grips. Here is a notice Hogue posted when this was first implemented.

Font Rectangle Bicycle part Metal Auto part


If you are talking Frames in general, except for Sig's trial of what has become to be known as "Mud Rails"... Not to be confused with early German 9mm P226 rails, where the top frame rail had reduced width sections, which were eliminated when .357 Sig, and .40 S&W were introduced.

Trigger Gun accessory Rectangle Air gun Gun barrel

Font Automotive tire Eyewear Circle Rectangle


The only other Frame changes, except for the beavertail variations, and accessory Rail specifications, was the machining of the fire control parts "cavity" to accept the DAK system...

Bumper Trigger Office equipment Automotive exterior Gas
Automotive lighting Bumper Automotive design Bicycle part Gas
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F
TXGRunner said:
I am trying to understand the evolution of the P226 using old brochures, catalogs, online sources, and older threads on SigTalk.



I am sure some of that is incorrect because some of what I was reading seemed contradictory.

Are all P226s made after 2010 E2 frames?
Did the X5 introduce other ergonomic frame or grip changes, or just the E2?
Are all E2 frames US made and German frames pre-E2, or did both factories make both frames?
Except for stainless models, all P226s are alloy frames? Or were there some steel frames made in Germany?

I read on other threads, the grips are backwards compatible. So a modern grip panel should fit a 2020 production and 2010 production, but a 2010 production likely will not fit a 2020 production, correct? Does that relate to the changeover to E2 frames or to the X5 series or some other change?

If there's a kind of summary of the P226 development that answers most of these questions, I'd be very interested in reading it. I just want to have an idea of what is compatible or not, and narrow the definitions when a anyone refers to X5 or E2. I appreciate any help.
Click to expand...
As for the E2 frame No. I have three P226s all with build dates acter 2010 An Equinox Extreme in 40?357 sig and an Elite SAO in 9MM none have the E2 frame.
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12131
E2 has nothing to do with the physical frame. It refers to the enhanced ergonomic (E2) grip. Saying "E2 frame" only adds to the confusion.
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TXGRunner
@Willard - you should write a book - that's fantastic information, exactly what I was hoping to find. I'll have to study the rail cut pictures a little more closely to make sure I get it. I was just talking about the grip of the frame, but the info on the rails and rear cut-outs for DAK are interesting too.

Correct me if I am mistaken, but the DA/SA and SAO frames are also different, right? I watched a video of a trigger swap and the left side of the DA/SA looked different from the SAO I thought, different holes, different layout for that double half loop wire retainer under the safety lever.

Thanks @Firearms Collector & @12131. I appreciate the information.

@12131 - it is confusing and that's what motivated the question - I definitely don't want to add to it.

===
In one diagram I saw, I believe by Sig, the undercut at the bottom rear of the trigger guard was described as the X5 cut. Without feeling them, I can't tell if it is an optical illusion, poor photography, or what - but it appears to me there is a noticeable cut there on the X5 competition guns and also on the Legions - and that is on the actual frame, not on the grip (or not only the grip) - and the cut is absent from many other frames. Did this end up on all frames after a certain year, or is it still only on some models?
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12131
OK, here are some pics of the P226s from early W. German to Xguns (both 1st Gen and the Enhanced). All pics are mine, except the E2.

Focus on the rear of the bottom of the trigger guard. Notice that the old (1987) P226 and the 2010 P226 E2 have indistinguishable bottom. Nothing special about the "undercut". When folks talk about higher "undercut", it's really something slightly different. It's the area of the grip frame right behind the trigger guard that's relief cut more than the old frame. Take a look at the X5 L1 (1st Gen Xgun) and the Legion, and you'll notice that. On the Facettes (Enhanced Xgun), that relief is even more prominent.

Btw, the X5 Competition (first came out in 2007) is the same Gen as the X5 L1. The only real difference is that the Comp has fixed SAO trigger, while the L1 has fully adjustable SAO one. The other difference (grips) is immaterial.








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Willard
TXGRunner said:
@Willard - you should write a book - that's fantastic information, exactly what I was hoping to find. I'll have to study the rail cut pictures a little more closely to make sure I get it. I was just talking about the grip of the frame, but the info on the rails and rear cut-outs for DAK are interesting too.

Correct me if I am mistaken, but the DA/SA and SAO frames are also different, right? I watched a video of a trigger swap and the left side of the DA/SA looked different from the SAO I thought, different holes, different layout for that double half loop wire retainer under the safety lever.
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On US Made P226s the SAO and DA/SA-DAO-DAK frames are different.

The SAO is cut both to accept the Left and Right Safety pivot point in the area of the Hammer Stop Pin... plus a stud to locate the Manual Safety Spring, and act as an anchor point... which you described as a "double half loop wire retainer"... Sig Sauer Manual Safety Spring: MGW (midwestgunworks.com)

Air gun Trigger Gun barrel Gun accessory Revolver

Air gun Trigger Gun barrel Gun accessory Metal


The DA/SA, DAO, and DAK will normally have the frame machined to accept the "Bearing", to accept the Decocking Lever, although the DAO and DAK do not use them.

Air gun Trigger Grey Gun barrel Gun accessory
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Willard
The P220 frames are a different story, as there are German frames, which can be configured either way...

Trigger Gun barrel Gun accessory Air gun Font


Or some configured as SAOs, unable to accept a Bearing, for the Decocking Lever...
Air gun Trigger Gun barrel Gun accessory Metal
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TXGRunner
@12131 - okay, I see it, almost like a finger groove behind the trigger. That's one of the difficulties relying on sales catalogs/brochures, instead of clearly stating the difference, they have to sell it as superior with hyped up names. Thank you very much for the pictures. Having the various designs side by side helps tremendously.

@Willard - that confirms what I suspected, there would be no way to convert a DA/SA to SAO. Thanks for the clear pics and the added info on the P220.

===
Part of the reason for the questions is I am looking to buy a P226 and P229, both SAO, later this year to convert to 357 SIG. I know the P226 is an easy slide swap from 9mm, but the P229 requires shaving off a little of the inside of the manual safety levers/wings to accommodate the wider slide. I was thinking about buying used SAOs for the frames, so I wanted to know the differences going back to ~2010. I have a much better idea of what I want now.

I wouldn't mind having a 400 Cor Bon swap barrel for a P220, but that will be next year or the year after, if I do it at all.

Thanks again for all the information.
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Willard
TXGRunner said:
@12131 - okay, I see it, almost like a finger groove behind the trigger. That's one of the difficulties relying on sales catalogs/brochures, instead of clearly stating the difference, they have to sell it as superior with hyped up names. Thank you very much for the pictures. Having the various designs side by side helps tremendously.

@Willard - that confirms what I suspected, there would be no way to convert a DA/SA to SAO. Thanks for the clear pics and the added info on the P220.

===
Part of the reason for the questions is I am looking to buy a P226 and P229, both SAO, later this year to convert to 357 SIG. I know the P226 is an easy slide swap from 9mm, but the P229 requires shaving off a little of the inside of the manual safety levers/wings to accommodate the wider slide. I was thinking about buying used SAOs for the frames, so I wanted to know the differences going back to ~2010. I have a much better idea of what I want now.

I wouldn't mind having a 400 Cor Bon swap barrel for a P220, but that will be next year or the year after, if I do it at all.

Thanks again for all the information.
Click to expand...
The only advice I gave, is related to the P226 SAOs of the past few years, involving the Legion and Elite versions.

Through a conversation I just had with Tigerbloodwinning, earlier versions such as from the Mastershop in Germany, there was a different "Safety Spring" setup, for even them. So basically for the P226 SAO, and likely the P229 SAO as well, I would say anything 5 years old or newer, would likely be the same setup.

That's part of the problem, Sig doesn't provide much information on SAOs, up to, and including viable parts breakdowns and nomenclatures.
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TXGRunner
Understood. I will look for a more recent used, or might even just buy new production. Thanks again for the information and pictures.
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KenBry
Willard, All the above info on frames and so forth needs a post on it’s own so it can be Stickied. JMHO
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Willard
KenBry said:
Willard, All the above info on frames and so forth needs a post on it’s own so it can be Stickied. JMHO
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It needs to be from someone who has a wider assortment, than I, when you consider all of the Mastershop possibilities. Just with my minimal "collection", I probably haven't even scratched the surface...

Ideally if members, with some of those assets, could provide photos of "stripped" (Decocking Levers & Safety Levers removed) frames, with their heritage, such as the SKU, it may be possible.

P220, and P226 probably have the largest variation, but even the P229 when including the Sport models as well have a few.

I have never read it, but I wonder of the subject may be found here...? Vickers Guide | SIG SAUER
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12131
TXGRunner said:
@12131 - okay, I see it, almost like a finger groove behind the trigger...
Click to expand...
You nailed it, with that description. (y)
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TXGRunner
Willard said:
--snip--
I have never read it, but I wonder of the subject may be found here...? Vickers Guide | SIG SAUER
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$95, which might be fair. He advertises this as a coffee table book, so I don't know if it also serves as a technical reference. From what they showed, the pictures are extremely well lit and clear. Also, Ian McCollum (Forgotten Weapons) is a co-author, so I imagine much of the history is covered. All the pistol lines and all SMGs seems like a broad territory.

I might get it and let you know what I think.

=========
Using pics of other's collections would work if you can specify a standard for lighting and resolution. Ideally, the reader needs to see the different frames shot under similar lighting from almost identical angles to clearly identify the differences.

Vickers had the advantage of taking a professional photographer to Switzerland to review the Sig "library" and museum. Then they visited the HQ in New Hampshire to see everything they collected and are working on.

Writing quality reference/research books is not cheap with good reason.
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Willard
TXGRunner said:
$95, which might be fair. He advertises this as a coffee table book, so I don't know if it also serves as a technical reference. From what they showed, the pictures are extremely well lit and clear. Also, Ian McCollum (Forgotten Weapons) is a co-author, so I imagine much of the history is covered. All the pistol lines and all SMGs seems like a broad territory.

I might get it and let you know what I think.

=========
Using pics of other's collections would work if you can specify a standard for lighting and resolution. Ideally, the reader needs to see the different frames shot under similar lighting from almost identical angles to clearly identify the differences.

Vickers had the advantage of taking a professional photographer to Switzerland to review the Sig "library" and museum. Then they visited the HQ in New Hampshire to see everything they collected and are working on.

Writing quality reference/research books is not cheap with good reason.
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That's probably not a bad price for a Coffee Table Book... but alas, I don't have a Coffee Table for it to rest on! I do agree, the short video doesn't reveal much, except, it's about "history", which I had hoped might reveal trending changes in their designs.
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TXGRunner
I tried to buy the book, but they don't ship to APO addresses, at least not from the website. Given most of what they sell is restricted in some places, that makes some sense. I'll call them on Tuesday and see if I can get it mailed to me.

I have another question: on the P226 frame, is there a comparable difference to the difference between the P229 and the P229-1?

There's probably a thread on this, but is there an easy way to tell a P229 from a P229-1? Visually, say from a picture?
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12131
TXGRunner said:
...but is there an easy way to tell a P229 from a P229-1? Visually, say from a picture?
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In general, assuming factory original configurations, the easiest way externally to differentiate is that the 229-1 has the long external extractor and full height serration slide. The 229(9) one has the Legacy slide. But, when buying used from some folks, that assumption can go out the window, since mix-matching and conversion is routine these days.

However, the most surefire way is to look at the gun's magwell, and you can tell right away which one you have. The 229-1 has metal removed from the inner wall's surface. making it wider to accept the 229-1 mag. The old 229(9) gun's inner magwell wall is unmodified. Note, in pics below, 228 is same as 229(9).


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TXGRunner
Those are great pics. I had it backwards, I thought the long extractor was the old style; thanks for correcting me on that.

There was a thread from 2015 where somebody else showed the difference between the slides, with the 229-1 slide being much thinner with the wider breech block cut-out. The 40/357 slide has the newer, wider breech block cut-out, but the thicker walls of the legacy 229 slides. That's why the SAO version safeties can't engage the 40/357 slide, it's just a little too thick.

I have a P229 357 slide/barrel/spring/guide-rod setup. I was hoping to find a used pre-Legion P229 SAO, but I need the 229-1. As explained in an earlier post, I'll have the safety wings/levers modified slightly.

Thanks.
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12131
TXGRunner said:
There was a thread from 2015 where somebody else showed the difference between the slides, with the 229-1 slide being much thinner with the wider breech block cut-out. The 40/357 slide has the newer, wider breech block cut-out, but the thicker walls of the legacy 229 slides. That's why the SAO version safeties can't engage the 40/357 slide, it's just a little too thick.
There is no breech block on a milled slide. The whole thing is one piece. When talking about breech block, it always refers to the folded slide. The breech block is a separate entity that is pinned to the folded slide.

I have a P229 357 slide/barrel/spring/guide-rod setup. I was hoping to find a used pre-Legion P229 SAO, but I need the 229-1. As explained in an earlier post, I'll have the safety wings/levers modified slightly.
The only SAO P229 in existence is the Legion. There are no others.
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;)
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