[AzMaz]

Just curious what you do (if anything) as a middle ground between doing nothing, and implementing lethal force? We know what we do when no threat. We know what we’d do if we are threatened to the point where we fear for our lives. But, what about the middle? A group of BLM approach your restaurant table and get too close and semi threatening but not quite at fear for your life? I carry pepper spray. I view it as an effective option for those instances where people get too close for comfort and need a reason to retreat from my space. On patrol I had all types of options ranging from pepper spray, expandible baton, taser etc so hard for me to get comfortable with a “all or nothing” strategy. What are your thoughts on this? Am I the only one?

 

[ProofMark]

In a court you would be asked about what deescalation techniques you used before the pepper spray (which would be described as assault with a possible Hate Crime add-on).

 

[TerminalSigness]

Just curious what you do (if anything) as a middle ground between doing nothing, and implementing lethal force? We know what we do when no threat. We know what we’d do if we are threatened to the point where we fear for our lives. But, what about the middle? A group of BLM approach your restaurant table and get too close and semi threatening but not quite at fear for your life? I carry pepper spray. I view it as an effective option for those instances where people get too close for comfort and need a reason to retreat from my space. On patrol I had all types of options ranging from pepper spray, expandible baton, taser etc so hard for me to get comfortable with a “all or nothing” strategy. What are your thoughts on this? Am I the only one?
View attachment 512681

I understand the question. I dont understand the motivation.

Why would you put yourself in that situation? We were ground central, during the scam riots, due to being in the same city where Jamarcus Glover‘s mule, lived and died. We avoided those parts of town, where the crazies rule. It wasn’t worth it to me, to make a point by entering their safe space. For some odd reason, they didn’t visit places where guys like me hang out.

For sure, I would deploy something less lethal, as a way to make a point, if I didn’t owe my allegiance to my family first.

 

[Thebankerman]

Slim chance BLM shows up in my county again. Look up what happened to their little march through Bedford County several years ago. However, you make a good point. I have never thought about that middle ground “gray area”.

 

[Skyviking]

I view "pepper spray" as great tool for LEOs who happen to have back-up available when they are "somewhat" incapacitated/inconvenienced when the s___ gets in their face, too. I am too old to be going hands-on with anyone under 70, let alone 40, 30, 20...

 

[Rich Jenkins]

Yes, I have a LTL option (POM spray) on me most of the time. I think it is good to have choices in dealing with a situation. In my state (FL) it can be carried openly but I choose to CCW it (weak side, OWB holster), next to my spare mag.

I also choose to be fit; I'm 64 and go to the gym three times a week. I've lost 30 lbs over the past two years, back down to a 34" waist like I was in my 30s. This summer I may try Jiu Jitsu, but my wife's convinced this is a bad idea.

 

[P938365]

In a court you would be asked about what deescalation techniques you used before the pepper spray (which would be described as assault with a possible Hate Crime add-on).

Self-defense statutes don't typically have deescalation measures written into them. What they do have in the affirmative defenses are words to the effect of:

“a person is justified in using physical force upon another person in order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by that other person."

This is from Colorado's statute, and it is pretty close to other states' self-defense statutes.

 

[AzMaz]

I understand the question. I dont understand the motivation.

Why would you put yourself in that situation? We were ground central, during the scam riots, due to being in the same city where Jamarcus Glover‘s mule, lived and died. We avoided those parts of town, where the crazies rule. It wasn’t worth it to me, to make a point by entering their safe space. For some odd reason, they didn’t visit places where guys like me hang out.

For sure, I would deploy something less lethal, as a way to make a point, if I didn’t owe my allegiance to my family first.

Short answer is, I would never put myself in that situation, nor would I board a plane that I knew was going to crash. It’s a given that one should never seek out trouble. Problem is, trouble finds you in life. Mall food courts, schools, FedEx office, movie theaters, Walmart, walking through a safe neighborhood etc etc. All sites of shootings. 99% of us on ST CCW often if not always and none are looking for danger. If I knew an area was “hot” for any reason I’m not going there. Unfortunately these things happen in good areas and are unforeseeable unless one owns a really good crystal ball. I don’t own a crystal ball so I follow the seatbelt rule. Wear it and if you never need it, cheap Insurance.
My position is that options are good. Having a spare magazine and something that’s an intermediate level of force is cheap insurance. If someone is not capable of using something like pepper spray they shouldn’t. Same with carrying a firearm. As I always say, a man’s got to know his limitations. I’ve been trained with pepper spray, been sprayed with it, and am always very situationally aware so before dispensing would have observed wind conditions etc. Also, it’s not really a spray but more of a hard and direct 10 foot stream.

 

[iceman17930]

You want to clear them out deploy fart spray.

 

[AzMaz]

Slim chance BLM shows up in my county again. Look up what happened to their little march through Bedford County several years ago. However, you make a good point. I have never thought about that middle ground “gray area”.

I was the the BLM scenario as a random example but it could be any intermediate threat. Drug addict, mentally ill etc. A blast in the face buys you time to exit the area and creates instant space between you and the threat. Obviously if the threat is a high level one (gun/knife presented) pepper spray isn’t going to be what you go to.

 

[B35]

I think getting up and leaving would be good option for someone. I would not expect the average CCW guy to have a bag full of escalation of force options. I don't carry pepper spray. I don't carry a baton. I don't even carry a knife. So if someone got up to leave, then that would make sense as the first thing to do. If rioters tried to stop him with force, then he'd be justified using his pistol. I'd vote not to indict.

 

[Tgg]

Yes, I have a LTL option (POM spray) on me most of the time. I think it is good to have choices in dealing with a situation. In my state (FL) it can be carried openly but I choose to CCW it (weak side, OWB holster), next to my spare mag.

I also choose to be fit; I'm 64 and go to the gym three times a week. I've lost 30 lbs over the past two years, back down to a 34" waist like I was in my 30s. This summer I may try Jiu Jitsu, but my wife's convinced this is a bad idea.

Rich, I won’t dissuade you from some Jiu-Jitsu classes. You can visit a couple schools first but you may be pleasantly surprised with some classes. If you find some grappling teachers it can be a great workout with good submission skills to be learned. A hard core MMA gym could be a recipe for injury but check some out. I’ve studied several martial arts and have had great results, Brazilian jiu jitsu is one of my favorites.

 

[LEEEAGLE]

The biggest problem is that BLM type groups are a politically protected species, to be avoided at all times. I am a political target. Even the use of LTL will most likely be used to show your intent to escalate. The only win for us is to get home alive and wait for the media to destroy you, and then hope the DA ain't to woke!!!

 

[Devereaux]

Rich, I won’t dissuade you from some Jiu-Jitsu classes. You can visit a couple schools first but you may be pleasantly surprised with some classes. If you find some grappling teachers it can be a great workout with good submission skills to be learned. A hard core MMA gym could be a recipe for injury but check some out. I’ve studied several martial arts and have had great results, Brazilian jiu jitsu is one of my favorites.

If you suggest this as a fitness process, I would agree, BUT if you have any thinking it would be “useful” in a fight, put that aside. All these martial arts are sports; they don’t teach and train killing or incapacitating moves, as no one wants another opponent competing to be injured. But in a street fight, the first principle is hurt them as quickly and as harshly as you can. You are not looking for a “fair fight” - you are looking to survive.

 

[LEEEAGLE]

These anarchist groups are very well organized, and know which areas they are "allowed" to operate. They also know very well that if they stray out into the "wrong" area that "We the People" would end them "post haste"! We already know where they are. We avoid them. If their current MO changes, then we know that we are own with our safety in our own hands. Act accordingly

 

[New320X]

In a court you would be asked about what deescalation techniques you used before the pepper spray (which would be described as assault with a possible Hate Crime add-on).

Just asking, kinda food for thought,
Are civilians required to or held to the same standard as law enforcement in deescalation techniques? Is this something that is taught in CCW classes? A vast majority of states now have stand your ground laws. I’m sure liberal prosecutors or civil attorneys in blue cities may try to push this narrative.

 

[Tgg]

If you suggest this as a fitness process, I would agree, BUT if you have any thinking it would be “useful” in a fight, put that aside. All these martial arts are sports; they don’t teach and train killing or incapacitating moves, as no one wants another opponent competing to be injured. But in a street fight, the first principle is hurt them as quickly and as harshly as you can. You are not looking for a “fair fight” - you are looking to survive.

I do agree that most karate studios are a fitness class, but not all. One person I trained with was the most sadistic individual I’ve met and he didn’t sugarcoat his beliefs that he taught people to defend their life with their bare hands. There were no uniforms in his class just street clothes, that’s always a red flag to me when I see the storefront karate gyms. BJJ on the other hand I’ve found to be very good at incapacitating in a quick manner (blood chokes are effin awesome) and it’s not a bad idea to know how to fight if you find yourself on the ground.

 

[AzMaz]

Of all the available strategies, going up close and personal hand to hand while having a firearm holstered at 3:30 is wayyyy down my on my list. If that is my fate I will implement that set of skills but again, I like space and distance. Whether the situation calls for intermediate use of force or deadly, I don’t want their hands on me.

 

[ShooterGranny]

And yet, the other day a group of "teens" masked and in black hoodies (how did they know they were teens?) entered a nice restaurant on the second floor of a building in Queens, NY. In just a couple minutes they totally trashed the entire inside and then left.

Wild video captures rowdy NYC ‘wolfpack’ trashing Chinese restaurant

“We’ve fallen so low that there’s no expectation of consequences for this horrific attack on private property,” community activist Yiatin Chu wrote on Twitter.

nypost.com

It was a Chinese restaurant, a bit upscale, and it was pretty obviously a hate crime. There were a LOT of hate crimes of destruction of German-American owned businesses in WW II.

Do you have a favorite oriental restaurant in your nice town? Watch out. Beware. The hate is strong and getting stronger.

 

[LEEEAGLE]

Just asking, kinda food for thought,
Are civilians required to or held to the same standard as law enforcement in deescalation techniques? Is this something that is taught in CCW classes? A vast majority of states now have stand your ground laws. I’m sure liberal prosecutors or civil attorneys in blue cities may try to push this narrative.

Civilians are held to actual writen law, it's the media that will make your life miserable and push for your incarceration.