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Can the P365-380 handle +P ammunition?

3850 Views 21 Replies 8 Participants Last post by Garrick01, 6 mo ago

Sheepdogged

Discussion Starter · 12 mo ago

My first inclination was, yes, because +P allegedly adheres to SAAMI. But why can't I find one single mention of "+P" or "plus P" on the SAAMI website (SAAMI).

It's strange because an old NRA article states "the need for greater performance has driven SAAMI to create a so-called “+P” level of pressure" (An Official Journal Of The NRA | SAAMI and +P). Well, if this is so, why doesn't their website mention it at all? It's not even in their FAQ.

In other words, SIG Sauer's owner's manual makes no mention of +P anywhere in the manual. It simply states "...Severe damage to the firearm and serious injury or death to the shooter or to others may result. Always use ammunition that complies with the industry performance standards established by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI) or ammunition manufactured to U.S. military specifications."

But if SAAMI doesn't mention it, I don't see how it can be said the P365-380 is rated for +P.

I'm probably overlooking something due to the failure of SAAMI (who should mention +P if they came up with it per the NRA's statement), or due to SIG Sauer not providing more specificity in their manual like other manufacturers.

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PA P365

· #2 · 12 mo ago

I don't believe SAAMI ever designated a +P for .380 ACP, which is why Sig Sauer does not designate the P365-380 as +P. Some ammo manufacturers load .380 ACP +P rounds, but they are not SAAMI compliant.

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eford

· #3 · 12 mo ago

Just showing my ignorance but why would you opt for a .380 +P vs going with a 9mm to begin with? I thought the whole idea behind the .380 was less recoil.

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Malicious Compliance

· #4 · 12 mo ago

380 ACP (9 x 17) only has standard pressure per SAAMI, no +P. Some companies do make 380 ACP in "+P" pressures, but these are not sanctioned by SAAMI, much like 9mm +P+.

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elmacgyver0

· #5 · 12 mo ago

I have never understood the whole +P business in the first place.
Just a good way to wear out guns quickly.
Power doesn't make up for lack of accuracy.
IMHO

Reactions: 2

Sheepdogged

Discussion Starter · #6 · 12 mo ago

eford said:
Just showing my ignorance but why would you opt for a .380 +P vs going with a 9mm to begin with? I thought the whole idea behind the .380 was less recoil.

It would still be less than 9mm (it won't even break 300 ft. lbs. of energy)

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Sheepdogged

Discussion Starter · #7 · 12 mo ago

Malicious Compliance said:
380 ACP (9 x 17) only has standard pressure per SAAMI, no +P. Some companies do make 380 ACP in "+P" pressures, but these are not sanctioned by SAAMI, much like 9mm +P+.

That doesn't answer the question about the NRA calling +P a SAAMI initiative.

Reactions: 1

Sheepdogged

Discussion Starter · #8 · 12 mo ago

elmacgyver0 said:
I have never understood the whole +P business in the first place.
Just a good way to wear out guns quickly.
Power doesn't make up for lack of accuracy.
IMHO

In the case of 9mm I wholeheartedly agree because if 9mm FMJ on average stops people as well as .40 S&W and .45 ACP, I don't see how putting a little extra change in 9mm will do anything but make it modestly harder to shoot and harder on a pistol over time (failure to incapacitate rates are there: An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association).

But while 9mm, .40 S&W and 45 ACP fail to stop someone 13%-14% of the time, there may yet be some potential for .380 ACP which still only fails 16% (as opposed to .25 ACP and .32 ACP which fail 35-40% of the time). In other words, I have a feeling that .380 ACP, being so close to 9mm may in fact tie all of them on average in a +p load, especially with Underwood XD bullets which are more or less barrier blind. If they can do this, and still take advantage of the small frames, it might be a sweet spot. Certain .380 ACP pistols cannot handle +P (e.g. Ruger LCP II). It won't just wear out the firearm, it might very well explode in your hand. Although the P365 seems to have solved its initial growing pains, I always said from the beginning it probably should have been introduced first in .380 ACP. And the fact is that the P365 has only been around 4 years, so that is far from having established the track record of the Glock 26, for example. There was a reason why 9mm pistols traditionally were not as small as ones chambered in .380 ACP. Perhaps SIG figured out a way to allow a firearm with that little mass to effectively shoot 9mm, but the possibility also exists that in 5-10 years we might find out that they have not held up so well. But a .380 ACP version—if it could take +p—might deliver the same average potency of a 9mm while doing even less wear and tear on the smaller firearms.

Now if you charge a 9mm bullet enough (beyond the capability of Parabellum), you will see some improvement (hence .357 SIG only fails to incapacitate 9% on average which is tied with centerfire rifles).

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Sheepdogged

Discussion Starter · #9 · 12 mo ago

Malicious Compliance said:
380 ACP (9 x 17) only has standard pressure per SAAMI, no +P. Some companies do make 380 ACP in "+P" pressures, but these are not sanctioned by SAAMI, much like 9mm +P+.

But my question is, How do you know some meet SAAMI specs? If I can't find +P anywhere on the SAAMI website despite what the NRA reported all those years ago then I really can't bank on anything +P being SAAMI approved unless I see it from SAAMI.

Malicious Compliance

· #10 · 12 mo ago

Sheepdogged said:
That doesn't answer the question about the NRA calling +P a SAAMI initiative.

Sheepdogged said:
But my question is, How do you know some meet SAAMI specs? If I can't find +P anywhere on the SAAMI website despite what the NRA reported all those years ago then I really can't bank on anything +P being SAAMI approved unless I see it from SAAMI.

Nowhere in the article you linked do I see any specific mention of 380 +P. The standard doesn't exist, hence there are no guns that can legitimately claim meeting 380 +P pressures.

I am confused by your confusion.

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Sheepdogged

Discussion Starter · #11 · 12 mo ago

Malicious Compliance said:
Nowhere in the article you linked do I see any specific mention of 380 +P. The standard doesn't exist, hence there are no guns that can legitimately claim meeting 380 +P pressures.

I am confused by your confusion.

I understand. It is confusing. And my point is no +P caliber is mentioned on the SAAMI website at all.

Sheepdogged

Discussion Starter · #12 · 12 mo ago

Thanks everyone for chiming in. I guess at this point I'm going to give up researching a small .380 with a good trigger capable of taking +P .380 ACP rounds. It makes me wonder why Underwood even offers them.

Malicious Compliance

· #13 · 12 mo ago

Sheepdogged said:
I understand. It is confusing. And my point is no +P caliber is mentioned on the SAAMI website at all.

Not accurate. The following (handgun) calibers have +P pressures as defined by SAAMI:

9mm Luger
38 Special
38 Super Automatic
45 Auto

Ammo manufacturers seem to call over-pressure loads +P. That is, unless a +P standard already exists, then they seem to use the mythical +P+ designation.

Sheepdogged

Discussion Starter · #14 · 12 mo ago

Malicious Compliance said:
Not accurate. The following (handgun) calibers have +P pressures as defined by SAAMI:

9mm Luger
38 Special
38 Super Automatic
45 Auto

Ammo manufacturers seem to call over-pressure loads +P. That is, unless a +P standard already exists, then they seem to use the mythical +P+ designation.

Did you find this on the website? If not, where did you find it? As I said, I could not find a single reference on the website for +P

Malicious Compliance

· #15 · 12 mo ago

SAAMI Standards - SAAMI

American National Standards Published by SAAMI The SAAMI Standards are published to provide safety, reliability, and interchangeability standards for commercial manufactures of firearms, ammunition, and components. SAAMI Z299.1 – 2018 – Voluntary Industry Performance Standards for Pressure and...

saami.org

Reactions: 1

Talldog

· #16 · 12 mo ago

eford said:
Just showing my ignorance but why would you opt for a .380 +P vs going with a 9mm to begin with? I thought the whole idea behind the .380 was less recoil.

Not just recoil, but also manipulating the gun. When I finally got rid of my Glock 26, I could barely (and I mean barely) rack the slide. My LCP MAX kicks harder than the Glock, but it's much easier to rack.

Reactions: 1

Sheepdogged

Discussion Starter · #17 · 12 mo ago

Malicious Compliance said:
SAAMI Standards - SAAMI

American National Standards Published by SAAMI The SAAMI Standards are published to provide safety, reliability, and interchangeability standards for commercial manufactures of firearms, ammunition, and components. SAAMI Z299.1 – 2018 – Voluntary Industry Performance Standards for Pressure and...

saami.org

THANK YOU! So the only calibers SAAMI approves for +P appear to be 9mm, .38 Special, .38 Super Automatic, and .45 Auto like Malicious Compliance said. So I guess it's safe to say that, despite all those comments on Underwood's website of people with the G42 and other guns using .380 ACP +P ammunition, from what I can tell reading the manuals for Glock (G42), SIG (P365-380 & P238), S&W (Shield EZ 380 & Bodyguard 380) and Ruger (LCP II or LCP MAX), none of these pistols are rated for .380 ACP +P.

Honestly, I cannot find a .380 ACP that is rated for +P, so again, why in the world is Underwood selling it? You would think that they might respond to the comments on their website using +P .380 ACP ammo in guns not rated for it and set people straight. More than one person is claiming to use them in a Ruger LCP II, among others, which the manual specifically prohibits as I've heard people have had LCP pistols explode using it. They've got five different rounds they offer (Online Handgun Ammo for Self Defense | Underwood Ammo).

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Malicious Compliance

· #18 · 12 mo ago

I have used +P ammo in my G42 without much if any, concern. I prefer to keep these to well-known, established ammo manufacturers, however. PrecisionOne is my preferred +P 380 ammo; I've had no issues with that in the Glock. Underwood should be fine, as well. These companies don't want to put exploding ammo on the market!

Reactions: 1

Malicious Compliance

· #19 · 12 mo ago

Sheepdogged said:
So I guess it's safe to say that, despite all those comments on Underwood's website of people with the G42 and other guns using .380 ACP +P ammunition, from what I can tell reading the manuals for Glock (G42), SIG (P365-380 & P238), S&W (Shield EZ 380 & Bodyguard 380) and Ruger (LCP II or LCP MAX), none of these pistols are rated for .380 ACP +P.

Most modern firearms are built to be safe using SAAMI rated ammo. Since 380 ACP +P is not SAAMI rated, none of the firearms manufacturers will approve it's use. As I said earlier, the major ammo manufacturers, including PrecisionOne and Underwood, do not want to put dangerous ammo on the streets. Also, keep in mind that the case for the 380 is quite small. There is only so much powder that can be put in there and still have room for the bullet.

Reactions: 1

PA P365

· #20 · 12 mo ago

Instead of using .380 ACP + P ammo in a P365-380, I would recommend using Hornady 9mm Lite in a P365. The Hornady 9mm Lite is a 100 grain bullet travelling at 1125 fps generating 281 ft./lbs. The Underwood .380 ACP + P is a 90 grain bullet travelling at 1200 fps generating 288 ft./lbs. The energy of the Hornady 9mm Lite is comparable with no issues regarding chamber pressure.

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