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Watch the video I posted in response to the broken extractor myth. Maybe a 1911 with a fixed extractor is susceptible to breaking, but modern firearms are designed so the extractor rides over the case rim. More likely to damage the brass case than do anything to the extractor.
So then if I drop a round in the chamber and let the slide go ( without a magazine inserted) no harm will happen to the extractor?
 

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Just don't ever carry anything from freedom munitions. I have some 38 special from them that gets pushed all the way in just trying to load it into a Marlin 1894.
 

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Discussion Starter · #63 ·
So then if I drop a round in the chamber and let the slide go ( without a magazine inserted) no harm will happen to the extractor?
Take a close look at the new style extractor The front edge has a 45° bevel on it that can fairly easily move over the extractor lip of the shell casing. Also note that the pivot hole is oblong, allowing for the extractor arm to easily go through some serious gyrations in the process of chambering a cartridge. I think that it's most likely that there will not be any damage to the extractor if you release the slide and let it slam into the cartridge.

However, if you are cautious, then release the slide slowly and then push the rear of the extractor inward to move the extractor claw outward and out of the way so that the extractor lip of the shell casing can easily slide past the extractor claw, and the slide can then go into battery.

New Style P365/X/XL Extractor:
404071


Note that the pivot hole of the old style extractor is round and the extractor cannot move as freely as the new style extractor. But the old style extractor still has a leading edge of close to 45°, so I suspect that you can also slam the slide onto a cartridge in the chamber without extractor breakage.

But again, you can also release the slide slowly and manually move the rear of the extractor arm inward so that the extractor claw will clear the extractor lip of the shell casing. and allow the slide to go into battery.

Old Style P365/XL Extractor:
404074
 

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Pretty sure one gun has old style the other has new style. Guess I am a little irritated because I get different Dara from different sources. I guess I will just assume it’s better to let the slide strip the bullet from the mag but if I forget for some reason I won’t fret too much about it.
 

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So then if I drop a round in the chamber and let the slide go ( without a magazine inserted) no harm will happen to the extractor?
Watch the video and make up your own mind. You'll never get anywhere close to 100% agreement on this subject. With this and many other gun related things on the internet you'll run into a lot of opinions and many of those are based on old information. Problem is, nothing ever gets removed form the internet so misinformation is always around.

I once knew a guy who was convinced that if you shot someone anywhere on their body (e.g. the hand) with a 45 ACP it would always knock them down. He also believed that the 223 round was designed to tumble when it hits someone and would somehow tumble straight to their heart. He was convinced those two things were fact and would not let go of that belief.

I never take some random forum person's opinion as fact. Do your own research and make up your mind based on facts.
 

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Lock the slide back on your P365/X/XL and press the rear of the extractor inward, and then notice how little resistance the extractor claw provides to it moving outward. The amount of wear that the brass cartridge could cause to the steel extractor is so minimal as to be trivial.

When you use the chambering method that I described, there is virtually no chance of damage to the extractor. The recoil spring is near minimum compression and it only provides a small amount of forward force to the slide and to the extractor claw resting against the shell casing. Pressing inward on the rear of the extractor allows the claw to easily move outward from the cartridge, allowing the cartridge to slide by as the recoil spring pulls the slide into battery. If the recoil spring is not able to pull the slide into battery, it is likely worn out and this might be a good way to detect a weak recoil spring before it becomes a serious problem.

I use my thumbnail to push the rear of the extractor inward. If you have weak thumbnails, use a wooden popsicle stick, or something soft that won't mar the finish, to press the rear of the extractor inward. This chambering method is a no brainer.
Do you carry your popsicle stick strong side or weak side? IWB or OWB? I’m thinking that IWB at 2 o’clock would be a problem when mounting your bike. o_O

Seriously folks, we have argued about 1 in the pipe vs empty chamber for decades. Now you want to add the Barney Fife method to your EDC to save one F’n round of ammo. Shoot the d4mn round, stomp on the casing, and the spit on it for good measure.

This makes me think of that scene from Raiders of Ark.
 

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I use my thumbnail to push the rear of the extractor inward.
Tried that, the rear compressed a bit, but the slide still won't go past the case lip (when is in slow motion).
Seriously folks, we have argued about 1 in the pipe vs empty chamber for decades.
If you are old and had those arguments "for decades", maybe we should just shut down this forum, because nobody else needs to say anything anymore.
At lest until you die, then we are free to frolic.
 

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Tried that, the rear compressed a bit, but the slide still won't go past the case lip (when is in slow motion).

If you are old and had those arguments "for decades", maybe we should just shut down this forum, because nobody else needs to say anything anymore.
At lest until you die, then we are free to frolic.
No “if” about it. I am old. I hope the leftist, who apparently are deciding to gun up, follow your methods of chambering ammo in their new firearms. Sometimes when you are “old”, all you need is an extra second or two, to get the drop on that young thug.
Don’t let my continuing heart beat inhibit your “frolic” time. As long as you stay off my patch, we will be cool. If by some chance, you and I are on the same side of the street when the sh1t gets real, stay in front of me and wear ear protection while you pull out your popsicle stick.
Ol TR would love this thread. Speak a lot and carry a little stick
 
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Sometimes when you are “old”, all you need is an extra second or two, to get the drop on that young thug.
Did anyone here said that that you need to chamber a round AFTER you are attacked? You are making straw-man arguments.

If you don't agree with certain opinions (good or bad) you can debate the facts and technical issues. Or not debate anything.
I just find it amazing that you feel that you can decide what topics should not be discussed by everyone else, just based on the fact that YOU heard them before. That adds a big zero to the community.
 

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Discussion Starter · #71 ·
Pretty sure one gun has old style the other has new style. Guess I am a little irritated because I get different Dara from different sources. I guess I will just assume it’s better to let the slide strip the bullet from the mag but if I forget for some reason I won’t fret too much about it.
You need to put it all into perspective. Bullet setback is only going to be an issue for people that carry with a round in the chamber and chamber the cartridge from the magazine. Most of those people will be rechambering defensive rounds because they are either swapping out their defensive ammo for target ammo at the range or to remove the defensive round in the chamber to clean their firearm. Most people are not going to be rechambering target ammo.

At least with good quality ammunition, bullet setback will only occur if you chamber a round from the magazine. Even then, the amount of setback that can possibly occur is dependent upon the quality of the ammunition. Note that I was able to rechamber from the magazine, both Sig Elite Performance and Speer Gold Dot ammunition, 20 times with no appreciable bullet setback. With Remington Range ammo, the setback began to occur with the 3rd rechambering.

With known excellent quality ammo, bullet setback isn't much an issue. But in these times you can't always obtain excellent quality ammunition. If you are using lesser grade ammunition, bullet setback can occur when rechambering a round from the magazine.

If you are at all worried about setback, you can either pay close attention to how many times you have chambered a cartridge, measure the the over all length of the cartridge to check for setback, or instead manually load the cartridge so setback never occurs.

If you are at all worried about extractor damage, don't let the slide slam, and instead gently release the slide onto the cartridge and then push on the rear of the extractor to allow the slide to go into battery.

As for myself, I'll chamber the first round manually and then insert a fully loaded magazine and never need to worry about bullet setback issues.
 

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Did anyone here said that that you need to chamber a round AFTER you are attacked? You are making straw-man arguments.

If you don't agree with certain opinions (good or bad) you can debate the facts and technical issues. Or not debate anything.
I just find it amazing that you feel that you can decide what topics should not be discussed by everyone else, just based on the fact that YOU heard them before. That adds a big zero to the community.
So your malfunction drill is Tap-Roll-Rack-poke with a stick. Gotcha.

Sounds like you have a little projection going on. I Do Not Want Anyone To Be Quiet. I want You To keep on Talking.

This is like a Seinfeld episode. A thread about nothing. Enter laugh track
 
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Discussion Starter · #74 ·
TerminalSigness,

Are you even remotely capable of adding anything, other than snark to a discussion, say perhaps a useful logical argument and/or any real evidence to back up a claim, etc?
 

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TerminalSigness,

Are you even remotely capable of adding anything, other than snark to a discussion, say perhaps a useful logical argument and/or any real evidence to back up a claim, etc?
Absolutely.
1) firearms are not toys. Do not play with them while trying reinvent the wheel.
2) your first firearm should not be altered. Practice actually shooting real ammo In real training scenarios, and quit taking your only defensive weapon apart, just to play with it.
3) always shoot a couple boxes of any self defense ammo, to ensure function. After ensuring that your EDC mags work properly, don’t continuously load and a unload the same rounds. Purchase enough mags to have extras available for range use. Other than the chambered round, which usually ends up in my mixture bin, only unload your EDC mag by firing those rounds at a target to update your ammo.

logical argument- after you eject your unspent EDC round from the chamber, and then chamber a new pristine round from the mag. then you will experience zero setback. Better yet, don’t eject that round, change to your range mag, and send that troublesome-worrisome-problematic maybe set back round down range. It sounds as if you are obsessing about the cost of one round. If a 60 some odd year old man with all of your training in solving every manufacturing defect ever created, can’t afford sending 1 dollars worth of hollow point down range, whose only transportation cost is the air in his bicycle tires, then I can’t solve all your problems. Now I know, that since you also obsess over inserting full mags into your P365 with one in the chamber, you are going to eventually have an empty mag, but the insertion should get easier each time Due to less spring pressure. You might want to get an empty/full magnet to stick on your forehead to remind you of the current condition of your mag.

see item 1) above.
 

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Super funny how some people think that shooting a gun gives them more insight in how that gun works than other people. And they can be smug about that.
Following the same logic, my wife that drove 2-300k miles should be an expert at changing timing belts in her car.

I shoot since I was an 18 yr old conscript. At that time I didn't care how a gun works. At 50, after an engineering degree and a lifetime of designing stuff, I think know more about materials and forces than most of the people on a forum. But I don't berate people with "you didn't shoot enough rounds to speak", I try to argue their argument. I like the approach that Allen has - interrogative and scientific. It might not be right, but at least he tries to understand things, that's learning curve.
As opposed to "just shoot the dam thing and don't worry" that some propose. Shooting doesn't bring ANY understanding of the gun.
I actually don't understand why those people are here on the forum, if their advice is "don't worry". Just to brag that they have a gun? To be in an echo-chamber that boosts their esteem?
 

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Discussion Starter · #78 ·
firearms are not toys.
Agreed.

Do not play with them while trying reinvent the wheel.
I never play with my firearms and I reinvent them separately from reinventing wheels. And I have reinvented wheels and improved them. Now I'm working on reinventing and improving my firearms.

your first firearm should not be altered.
Why not? Like clothing, firearms sometimes need to be tailor fit for your needs.

Practice actually shooting real ammo In real training scenarios, and quit taking your only defensive weapon apart, just to play with it.
I don't take my firearms apart to play with them. I take them apart to clean, lubricate, and improve them.

always shoot a couple boxes of any self defense ammo, to ensure function.
Agreed.

After ensuring that your EDC mags work properly, don’t continuously load and a unload the same rounds.
Other than the chambered round, which usually ends up in my mixture bin, only unload your EDC mag by firing those rounds at a target to update your ammo.
But why not unload them? The testing that I've performed shows that with reasonable quality ammunition, it is unlikely that loading and unloading magazines will cause any bullet setback or any harm to the ammunition

Purchase enough mags to have extras available for range use.
Agreed. My eight 12rd magazines aren't enough. I need to buy 4 more.

And in honor of the former vice president, maybe I should should buy a couple of 50rd drum magazines. Load the 50 round mag, then put it in a sock and you've got a reliable weapon.

I don't yet know what kind of set the Sig magazine springs will take in time. I need to do some acellerated life testing on Sig's magazine springs. For that I just bought some brass rod to make the testing jigs that I will need to test not only Sig's magazines springs, but also ISMI's magazine springs, and also MagGuts magazine springs. And my spring force gauge just arived. That will also allow me to do recoil spring testing and trigger testing.

logical argument- after you eject your unspent EDC round from the chamber, and then chamber a new pristine round from the mag. then you will experience zero setback.
I would NEVER do that. I remove the magazine first and then eject the round in the chamber. Ejecting a round from the chamber BEFORE removing the magazine is a common cause of negligent discharge.

The only time that a bullet is likely to set back in the shellcase (EXCLUDING MALFUNCTIONS) IS WHEN YOU CHAMBER FROM THE MAGAZINE! So unless I'm in an actual shooting situation, be it at the gun range or in self defense, I do not see a single valid reason to chamber a round from the magazine.

Better yet, don’t eject that round, change to your range mag, and send that troublesome-worrisome-problematic maybe set back round down range.
Now why would I do that? Since I manually chamber the first round, it has zero chance of setback into the shellcase and it is not troublesome in the least.

It sounds as if you are obsessing about the cost of one round.
Nope. I'm obsessing the possibility of a setback cartridge getting mixed up with the rest of the good rounds. By establishing a superior process, I virtually ELIMINATE the possibility of a setback cartridge entirely.

If a 60 some odd year old man with all of your training in solving every manufacturing defect ever created, can’t afford sending 1 dollars worth of hollow point down range, whose only transportation cost is the air in his bicycle tires, then I can’t solve all your problems.
You are not likely to solve any of my problems. In fact, I think that you ARE a problem. I've already spent in excess of $80 for test equipment and supplies needed to test various firearm parts. I'm a skeptic. I don't take anything at face value, especially if what someone tells me doesn't sound logical. I very often test things myself to determine the truth.

I also don't pay for the air in my bicycle tires. I get some exercise and force the air into the tires with a pump.

Now I know, that since you also obsess over inserting full mags into your P365 with one in the chamber, you are going to eventually have an empty mag, but the insertion should get easier each time Due to less spring pressure. You might want to get an empty/full magnet to stick on your forehead to remind you of the current condition of your mag.
People like me obsess about the small details so that people like you don't need to. That is why companies hire people like me to do product development. The labs that I work in are full of other people like me obsessing over the details. If we don't get things right, products go boom, and/or catch on fire, and/or electrocute people.

My testing has indicated that inserting a fully loaded magazine is not likely to cause bullet setback. But I still need a weaker RSA to determine whether or not inserting a fully loaded magazine will cause any cycling problems with the slide.

Before long I will have some actual data about magazine spring life with which to draw some legitimate conclusions.
 

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Agreed.


I never play with my firearms and I reinvent them separately from reinventing wheels. And I have reinvented wheels and improved them. Now I'm working on reinventing and improving my firearms.


Why not? Like clothing, firearms sometimes need to be tailor fit for your needs.


I don't take my firearms apart to play with them. I take them apart to clean, lubricate, and improve them.


Agreed.



But why not unload them? The testing that I've performed shows that with reasonable quality ammunition, it is unlikely that loading and unloading magazines will cause any bullet setback or any harm to the ammunition


Agreed. My eight 12rd magazines aren't enough. I need to buy 4 more.

And in honor of the former vice president, maybe I should should buy a couple of 50rd drum magazines. Load the 50 round mag, then put it in a sock and you've got a reliable weapon.

I don't yet know what kind of set the Sig magazine springs will take in time. I need to do some acellerated life testing on Sig's magazine springs. For that I just bought some brass rod to make the testing jigs that I will need to test not only Sig's magazines springs, but also ISMI's magazine springs, and also MagGuts magazine springs. And my spring force gauge just arived. That will also allow me to do recoil spring testing and trigger testing.


I would NEVER do that. I remove the magazine first and then eject the round in the chamber. Ejecting a round from the chamber BEFORE removing the magazine is a common cause of negligent discharge.

The only time that a bullet is likely to set back in the shellcase (EXCLUDING MALFUNCTIONS) IS WHEN YOU CHAMBER FROM THE MAGAZINE! So unless I'm in an actual shooting situation, be it at the gun range or in self defense, I do not see a single valid reason to chamber a round from the magazine.


Now why would I do that? Since I manually chamber the first round, it has zero chance of setback into the shellcase and it is not troublesome in the least.


Nope. I'm obsessing the possibility of a setback cartridge getting mixed up with the rest of the good rounds. By establishing a superior process, I virtually ELIMINATE the possibility of a setback cartridge entirely.


You are not likely to solve any of my problems. In fact, I think that you ARE a problem. I've already spent in excess of $80 for test equipment and supplies needed to test various firearm parts. I'm a skeptic. I don't take anything at face value, especially if what someone tells me doesn't sound logical. I very often test things myself to determine the truth.

I also don't pay for the air in my bicycle tires. I get some exercise and force the air into the tires with a pump.


People like me obsess about the small details so that people like you don't need to. That is why companies hire people like me to do product development. The labs that I work in are full of other people like me obsessing over the details. If we don't get things right, products go boom, and/or catch on fire, and/or electrocute people.

My testing has indicated that inserting a fully loaded magazine is not likely to cause bullet setback. But I still need a weaker RSA to determine whether or not inserting a fully loaded magazine will cause any cycling problems with the slide.

Before long I will have some actual data about magazine spring life with which to draw some legitimate conclusions.
Whew! That was something. Not sure what, but it was something.

There is a nugget of truth hidden in that hot mess. We, as free citizens, have zero insight into the inner workings of a strange mind belonging to a man on a bike packing heat. You guys be careful out there.
 
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