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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
This isn't a "365" problem, it's an auto pistol issue well recognized over decades.
While bullet setback may be an issue with all semiautomatic pistols, my testing is specific to the P365/X/XL. My testing results may not apply to a different semiautomatic pistol.

The test data speaks for itself. People may interpret, use it or not, as they wish. I actually started this discussion because someone was claiming that using the Makershot magazine loader could cause bullet setback. I've just loaded 5 different types of ammo with the Makershot loader with no signs whatsoever that it caused any bullet setback. If a problem exists I want to know what the root cause or causes of the problem are. I often need to do my own testing to find the answers.

I still don't have any authoritative answer as to how serious the bullet setback issue is for a P365/X/XL. Even if knew that bullet setback isn't a safety issue, I still don't know how seriously it affects accuracy.
 

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Even if knew that bullet setback isn't a safety issue, I still don't know how seriously it affects accuracy.
Accuracy should be the easiest part to test. Just get a small mallet and then shoot the deformed bullets. I will watch the results on youtube rather than be at the test range just in case there is a major malfunction.
By the way, I can't believe that someone would have a full magazine of all deformed bullets? That doesn't make sense to me if equipment is inspected and cleaned regularly, and the rounds are rotated or used on a regular basis.

And, I suspect that not every manufactured round is exactly the same length and the same seating of the projectile. There must be some variation from round to round.

View attachment 403965 In my earlier post, this is the round I was talking about. .357 Sig. This round has been chambered multiple times. This is a factory Sig V Crown.
The above 357 sig rounds would bother me!!!
TG
 

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That .357 ammo cannot be crimped because necking.
See above my picture how the more expensive "Hydra-Shock" is crimped and the budget "Punch" is not. That should hold better against set-back forces.
It also depends a lot of the feed ramp angle. The sharpest that angle is, the more force is exerted on the bullet when chambering.
In reloading, crimping a round usually means doing either a taper crimp or roll crimp to the case mouth after seating the bullet. Taper crimp is usually used for cartridges that headspace on the case mouth. Roll crimps are usually used for rounds that headspace on the rim.

I reload 357 sig, 400 Corbon and 40 super. All are bottleneck pistol cartridges. I crimp every round. Since these cartridges headspace on the necked down portion of the case you can use either a taper crimp or roll crimp.

The "crimp" you show in your picture is the first I've ever seen that done. Though I have seen 9mm rounds with a cannalure on the case in the same area. I guess that's to help prevent accidental setback? But I don't buy a lot of factory ammo since I reload most everything i shoot. So i don't see a lot of different ammo. I just see the cases after they've been used. However, i do buy factory defense loads.

Bottleneck cartridges, in general, are more susceptible to accidental setback. Obviously because there is less engagement area between the case and the bullet. That's why when I'm done at the range I'll drop one of my expensive defense rounds into the chamber and drop the slide. Then put the full magazine in. I've done that a godzillion times on all my guns and never had an issue with an extractor or accidental setback.
 

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That is an urban legend. Maybe if the extractor was fixed like on older 1911.
Why do you think the extractor has the angled shape of the hook front? To "jump" over a rim. Surely that soft brass will be scratched, but next time your probably will rotate the bullet in the barrel, so a different part of rim will be scratched..
The spring on the back of extractor is there for a reason: to allow flexing outwards.
The extractor gets "flexed" outwards every time you eject a round (round gets rotated after extraction from barrel). What's more flexing when you chamber?
That being said, I usually spend some JHP at range too, to refresh them and to see if the gun still works well with them.

Here in VA the line was drawn for us... at 20 ;)


I noticed that the Federal "Hydra-Shock" ammo is crimped too, as opposed to their cheaper "Punch" rounds. I guess the extra price has a reason, you get what you pay for.
View attachment 403967
No, it is not an urban legend it is a fact. Go ahead and drop the slide on a chamber ground in a Glock ship of the bottom corner of your extractor. Go ahead and do it with your P365 and see how quickly you start to bend the roll pivot pin for the extractor.
 

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No, it is not an urban legend it is a fact. Go ahead and drop the slide on a chamber ground in a Glock ship of the bottom corner of your extractor. Go ahead and do it with your P365 and see how quickly you bend the pivot pin for the extractor.
Go watch the video I posted. I drop the slide on a chambered round all the time in my Glocks and 365's. Never had an issue.

They even use a P365 as the example of a firearm that is safe to do it with.
 

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That's why when I'm done at the range I'll drop one of my expensive defense rounds into the chamber and drop the slide. Then put the full magazine in. I've done that a godzillion times on all my guns and never had an issue with an extractor or accidental setback.
Go watch the video I posted. I drop the slide on a chambered round all the time in my Glocks and 365's. Never had an issue.
They even use a P365 as the example of a firearm that is safe to do it with.
That's what I do too, but @downeyg says differently. Would be nice if he would provide a link for that information.
I would agree if the extractor was fixed, but the extractor has a spring behind it!
The extractor gets "pushed out" a bit by the bullet casing, it rides on the casing during recoil pretty hard (leaves marks on brass). The brass diameter is exactly the same as the lip diameter. So the extension of the extractor is equal. The angled tip makes sure that the forces on the extractor are minimized.
During case ejection, because rotation of the case (after extracting from barrel), I think that the case will flex more that extractor.

IDK, I would like to see a source for that statement that "extractor will break". He didn't even watch that video.
 

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Go watch the video I posted. I drop the slide on a chambered round all the time in my Glocks and 365's. Never had an issue.

They even use a P365 as the example of a firearm that is safe to do it with.
I don't own any Glocks, but I do this with my Sig, HK, Shield, Ruger and Kimber with no problems. The debate rages on!! I gotta go get some more popcorn! 😁
 

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Go watch the video I posted. I drop the slide on a chambered round all the time in my Glocks and 365's. Never had an issue.

They even use a P365 as the example of a firearm that is safe to do it with.
Go ahead, do as you will but you were warned. Not that I did not chip an extractor on a Glock 21 doing exactly what you have done. Call Glock, they will tell you what not to do.
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
Accuracy should be the easiest part to test. Just get a small mallet and then shoot the deformed bullets. I will watch the results on youtube rather than be at the test range just in case there is a major malfunction.
I'll be quite happy to remain cautious with setback rounds until someone ELSE can prove them safe for a P365/X/XL. Better safe than sorry.

By the way, I can't believe that someone would have a full magazine of all deformed bullets?
I wouldn't expect anyone to either. The issue is one setback round getting mixed in with the rest that shoots differently than what you are expecting.

The little bit of testing that I've performed so far shows that the issue of bullet setback is dependent mostly upon the ammunition manufacturer. Note that the Sig Elite performance and the Speer Gold Dot ammunition showed only 1/2 of one thousandth of an inch of setback after chambering the round 20 times. And that little bit of setback may be measuring error on my part.

I can use a caliper to measure the over all length of a box of 50 cartridges in 3 to 4 minutes to weed out any anomalies. So why not?
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 · (Edited)
Perhaps you should just disassemble the pistol, put a round in the chamber, reinsert the barrel into the gun while sliding the cartridge rim under the extractor, put the recoil spring back in and then place to slide back on the receiver. Do you think this would over-complicate the process? How about we just stop cycling ammunition back into the chamber and there will be no issue.
Don't be so hyperbolic. Lock back the slide of your P365/X/XL. Then press the rear of the extractor inward. You will notice how easily you can then move the claw of the extractor outwards.

Load a cartridge into the chamber. Slowly release the slide onto the cartridge. The slide will be slightly out of battery. Press inward at the rear of the extractor and the claw will ride over the lip of the shell casing and the slide will move fully forward into battery. I just did this 3 times without even needing to push the slide forward. No extractors were harmed in the testing of this procedure.

If it makes you feel any better, I didn't invent this procedure. I read online how someone else used this procedure to manually load a cartridge into the chamber of their P365/X/XL. It works well for a P365/X/XL and you don't need to slam anything to load the cartridge.

This procedure virtually eliminates setback of the bullet as no feed ramps were involved.
 

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I just load it from the magazine by pressing the slide release. Not for any scientific reason, It’s how I was taught. It’s also how the manual says you should load the gun. The manual also says “Do not ride the slide forward.”....
 

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Go ahead, do as you will but you were warned. Not that I did not chip an extractor on a Glock 21 doing exactly what you have done. Call Glock, they will tell you what not to do.
Your warning has been duly noted and I shall file it appropriately.
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
I just load it from the magazine by pressing the slide release. Not for any scientific reason, It’s how I was taught. It’s also how the manual says you should load the gun. The manual also says “Do not ride the slide forward.”....
"Believe nothing you hear, and only one half that you see.” ― Edgar Allan Poe

There is usually more than one way to do things. Often times many bad ways and only a few good ones.

The method for manually chambering, a cartridge as I outlined, virtually eliminates any possibility of bullet setback no matter how many times that you chamber the cartridge. Unless someone can give me a logical reason NOT to chamber in the manner that I outlined, I'll continue to do so.

Also note that the manual tells you NOT ride the slide when chambering a cartridge from a magazine. The manual is NOT applicable to manually chambering a cartridge.
 

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Sirens song gets me again. Another shipwreck.
 
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"Believe nothing you hear, and only one half that you see.” ― Edgar Allan Poe

There is usually more than one way to do things. Often times many bad ways and only a few good ones.

The method for manually chambering, a cartridge as I outlined, virtually eliminates any possibility of bullet setback no matter how many times that you chamber the cartridge. Unless someone can give me a logical reason NOT to chamber in the manner that I outlined, I'll continue to do so.

Also note that the manual tells you NOT ride the slide when chambering a cartridge from a magazine. The manual is NOT applicable to manually chambering a cartridge.
You do what you want. Follow your months of study and experience with your first handgun.
As far as Poe goes, I don’t follow the advise of 19th century junkies.
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 · (Edited)
I think the concern, as presented, is not so much with the bullet, as it is with damage to the bolt and extractor. TG
Lock the slide back on your P365/X/XL and press the rear of the extractor inward, and then notice how little resistance the extractor claw provides to it moving outward. The amount of wear that the brass cartridge could cause to the steel extractor is so minimal as to be trivial.

When you use the chambering method that I described, there is virtually no chance of damage to the extractor. The recoil spring is near minimum compression and it only provides a small amount of forward force to the slide and to the extractor claw resting against the shell casing. Pressing inward on the rear of the extractor allows the claw to easily move outward from the cartridge, allowing the cartridge to slide by as the recoil spring pulls the slide into battery. If the recoil spring is not able to pull the slide into battery, it is likely worn out and this might be a good way to detect a weak recoil spring before it becomes a serious problem.

I use my thumbnail to push the rear of the extractor inward. If you have weak thumbnails, use a wooden popsicle stick, or something soft that won't mar the finish, to press the rear of the extractor inward. This chambering method is a no brainer.
 
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