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Here are the results of two tests using Remington Range FMJ 9mm cartridges.

The initial cartridge overall length was 1.114".

Using a Makershot magazine loader with a stock 12rd Sig mag with 11 rounds already in the magazine, I loaded and unloaded the 12th rd using my finger on the tip of the bullet to push it back into the magazine 10 times. At the end of the test I measured the cartridge OAL to be 1.114". No change.

Using the SAME cartridge and the same Makershot loader, I proceeded to load it into a stock 12rd Sig mag with 11 rounds already in the magazine, making 12 rds in the magazine total. I inserted the magazine into my Sig P365X with the slide in battery. I retracted the slide and locked it backward. I removed the magazine, removed the cartridge under test, and measured it. I repeated the test 9 more times. At the end of the test I measured the cartridge OAL to be 1.114". No change.

Which means that using the Makershot loader, I loaded and unloaded the same cartridge as the 12th round in the magazine 20 times with no change in setback. This doesn't necessarily debunk someone's claim on Sig Talk that using the Makershot loader caused bullet setback for him. But I'd like to see him replicate the setback using the same ammunition with which he originally had the setback problem. It could have been that the cartridges he was using had loose bullets. But for myself, I'll perform some type of test on every brand of ammo that I use to make sure that they won't be prone to bullet setback problems. Eazy peazy.

On the second test it required a considerable amount of effort to rack the slide with 12 rounds already in the magazine. It didn't cause the bullet to setback, but it did cause deep scratches in the brass that I can feel with my fingernails.

The question that this raises for me is: "When carrying with one round in the chamber and 12 rounds in the magazine, could the amount of force that the magazine springs exert upon the cartridge increase the friction against the cartridge enough to cause a failure to feed?" If there no failures to feed in this condition when the RSA is new, could failures to feed in this condition occur as the recoil spring becomes weaker with age?
So, you‘re basically wasting your time......? Enjoy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Some guy was really determined to check the kaboom effects of bullet setback... and was disappointed:
Battered Bullets: Does bullet setback matter? | The Daily Caller
That was a good article with some actual testing.

"My experimentation and testing has shown to me that a lot of the common knowledge related to this topic is entirely wrong."
This is why I never accept the status quo at face value. I've seen the status quo be wrong too many times in my lifetime.

What this guy has proved is that with the specific ammo that he used, bullet setback was not an issue for his Glock barrel, at least not a problem with the few rounds that he tested.

But it does NOT prove that a Sig barrel is safe with a setback bullet. What I would like to see is a test showing how much the internal pressure increases when the bullet is setback with a +P load, and then is a Sig barrel rated for that increased pressure.

Stress fatigue failures may not show up for quite a while when a part is over stressed. In practical terms it may mean that shooting the occasional setback bullet will not cause a barrel failure in your lifetime. But I'd prefer a bit more information.

So who is willing to fire their P365 with severely setback bullets?
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
The results of the 3rd test. I used the same cartridge from the first two tests. I inserted the cartridge into the magazine as the 12th cartridge. With the slide locked backward I inserted the magazine. I released the slide and chambered the round under test. I ejected the magazine, then locked the slide backward, ejecting the cartridge. I measured the cartridge and then reloaded it into the magazine and repeated the test 19 more times.

This resulted in a total setback of 0.015". Note that I had to chamber and eject the cartridge 4 times before there was any measurable setback. Then after the 10th chambering, the amount of setback was reducing. I suspect that the powder was becoming very compacted at this point.

Do keep in mind that these tests are only valid for Remington Range FMJ 9mm ammo. The results from other ammo may vary considerably.
Fully Loaded 12 rd Magazine Chambering Tests​
Over All Length in Inches​
Initial Length​
1.114​
Loading 1​
1.114​
Loading 2​
1.114​
Loading 3​
1.113​
Loading 4​
1.112​
Loading 5​
1.111​
Loading 6​
1.109​
Loading 7​
1.107​
Loading 8​
1.106​
Loading 9​
1.104​
Loading 10​
1.103​
Loading 11​
1.103​
Loading 12​
1.102​
Loading 13​
1.102​
Loading 14​
1.102​
Loading 15​
1.101​
Loading 16​
1.100​
Loading 17​
1.100​
Loading 18​
1.100​
Loading 19​
1.100​
Loading 20​
1.099​
 

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If I have to unchamber the JHP round when I practice shoot, I am putting back the round in the open chamber, instead of letting it be racked in, hitting the ramp.
Or just shoot the JHP at the beginning of the session, freshen them up.

Some guy was really determined to check the kaboom effects of bullet setback... and was disappointed:
Battered Bullets: Does bullet setback matter? | The Daily Caller

PS: I am so tempted to get a Berretta PX4 Storm. One of the advantages, from many, is that the feed ramp is very small, because of rotating barrel unlocking mechanism.
So, does anyone here know the quickest way to damage an extractor? Give up? The answer is, dropping a slide on a chambered round. Now to be serious here, never drop a slide on a chambered round. Pistols are not designed to function in this manner. Pistol extractors are not designed to snap over a cartridge rim. Pistol extractors are designed to have the cartridge rim slide up under their hook.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
So, does anyone here know the quickest way to damage an extractor? Give up? The answer is, dropping a slide on a chambered round. Now to be serious here, never drop a slide on a chambered round. Pistols are not designed to function in this manner. Pistol extractors are not designed to snap over a cartridge rim. Pistol extractors are designed to have the cartridge rim slide up under their hook.
You can chamber the round, GENTLY release the slide onto the cartridge, then press inward on the rear of the extractor, while pushing the slide into battery. Pressing inward on the rear of the extractor removes nearly all of the spring force. I sincerely doubt that this will cause any damage to the extractor.
 

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I vote for a non-smooth transition up a dirty feed ramp with a dirty bolt.
403901


I'm thinking "some people have far too much free time...".

How about this:
1) Point pistol in safe direction, lock back action & carefully insert a cartridge into the chamber
2) Close action by gently pulling back on slide and allow to move forward, locking into battery
3) Insert a fully-loaded magazine into grip module
4) Place loaded pistol in holster
5) Stop worrying
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
View attachment 403901

I'm thinking "some people have far too much free time...".

How about this:
1) Point pistol in safe direction, lock back action & carefully insert a cartridge into the chamber
2) Close action by gently pulling back on slide and allow to move forward, locking into battery
3) Insert a fully-loaded magazine into grip module
4) Place loaded pistol in holster
5) Stop worrying
NEVER trust anyone that tells you not to worry!
 

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I rack a freaking round in with authority and then insert a full mag and tug to ensure it's seated. Holster. Then after a maximum of 2 times doing that with the same round it becomes range fodder.

Done.

Practice with your carry ammo by shooting old or chambered stuff, don't ride the slide easily, don't hop the extractor over the rim, don't rechamber a round more than a few times and don't overthink - IMO, of course ;). Good ammo will not get setback very easily. I don't have data besides every round going bang without issue over a decade of carrying using this system.
 

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So, does anyone here know the quickest way to damage an extractor? Give up? The answer is, dropping a slide on a chambered round. Now to be serious here, never drop a slide on a chambered round. Pistols are not designed to function in this manner. Pistol extractors are not designed to snap over a cartridge rim. Pistol extractors are designed to have the cartridge rim slide up under their hook.
Just going to drop this here. Has no bearing on the original post though.
 

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The question that this raises for me is: "When carrying with one round in the chamber and 12 rounds in the magazine, could the amount of force that the magazine springs exert upon the cartridge increase the friction against the cartridge enough to cause a failure to feed?" If there no failures to feed in this condition when the RSA is new, could failures to feed in this condition occur as the recoil spring becomes weaker with age?
As long as it will feed when manually racking that first round in from a full magazine and an empty chamber then no. Once you fire that +1 and the slide picks up the next round it’s essentially doing the same thing. I have over 2k rounds through mine on the original RSA and I just tested 3 new magazines (2-15rds and a 12rd) I loaded and fired them all +1 several times to verify function and not a problem. In fact, I haven’t had a single malfunction yet in this gun.

And I loaded them all by hand, why? Because I’m a man…. and I hate my thumbs.
 

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So, does anyone here know the quickest way to damage an extractor? Give up? The answer is, dropping a slide on a chambered round. Now to be serious here, never drop a slide on a chambered round. Pistols are not designed to function in this manner. Pistol extractors are not designed to snap over a cartridge rim. Pistol extractors are designed to have the cartridge rim slide up under their hook.
I never knew that prior to joining this forum. Actually really good info can be found here from time to time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 · (Edited)
I tested 5 different brands of 9mm ammo for bullet setback after chambering the cartridge 20 times.

Test procedure:
I inserted the cartridge into the magazine as the 12th cartridge. With the slide locked backward I inserted the magazine. I released the slide and chambered the round under test. I ejected the magazine, then locked the slide backward, ejecting the cartridge. I measured the cartridge and then reloaded it into the magazine and repeated the test 19 more times.

Note the results of the Magtech ammunition. The bullet setback about 0.0005" after the 11th chambering. But then the bullet started to move OUT of the case a total of 0.0030"! This is a very odd result and I may repeat the test. I thought my caliper was drifting, but I checked it against a standard and it was accurate.

The Speer LE Gold Dot and the Sig Elite Performance only set back 0.0005" after chambering 20 times. Their bullets appear to be locked in solid.

The Winchester Silver Tip began to setback after the 5th chambering for a total setback of 0.007" after the 20th chambering.

The Winchester Range seems to have the most setback at 0.015". But that cartridge had undergone other testing beforehand, which possibly could have started to loosen the bullet. I may need to repeat this test with a fresh cartridge.

Pardon the formatting. This website changed it.

Remington Range 9mm 115 gr FMJ​
OAL In Inches​
Mag Tech 9A 9mm 115 FMJ​
OAL In Inches​
Speer LE Gold Dot 9mm 115 JHP​
OAL In Inches​
Sig Elite Performance 9mm 115 JHP​
OAL In Inches​
Winchester Silver Tip 9mm 115 JHP​
OAL In Inches​
Initial Length​
1.114​
Initial Length​
1.1565​
Initial Length​
1.1195​
Initial Length​
1.0625​
Initial Length​
1.0865​
1​
1.114​
1​
1.1565​
1​
1.1195​
1​
1.0625​
1​
1.0865​
2​
1.114​
2​
1.1565​
2​
1.1190​
2​
1.0625​
2​
1.0865​
3​
1.113​
3​
1.1565​
3​
1.1190​
3​
1.0625​
3​
1.0865​
4​
1.112​
4​
1.1565​
4​
1.1190​
4​
1.0625​
4​
1.0865​
5​
1.111​
5​
1.1565​
5​
1.1190​
5​
1.0625​
5​
1.0860​
6​
1.109​
6​
1.1565​
6​
1.1190​
6​
1.0625​
6​
1.0855​
7​
1.107​
7​
1.1565​
7​
1.1190​
7​
1.0625​
7​
1.0855​
8​
1.106​
8​
1.1565​
8​
1.1190​
8​
1.0625​
8​
1.0850​
9​
1.104​
9​
1.1565​
9​
1.1190​
9​
1.0625​
9​
1.0845​
10​
1.103​
10​
1.1565​
10​
1.1190​
10​
1.0625​
10​
1.0835​
11​
1.103​
11​
1.1560​
11​
1.1190​
11​
1.0625​
11​
1.0820​
12​
1.102​
12​
1.1570​
12​
1.1190​
12​
1.0625​
12​
1.0810​
13​
1.102​
13​
1.1570​
13​
1.1190​
13​
1.0625​
13​
1.0800​
14​
1.102​
14​
1.1580​
14​
1.1190​
14​
1.0625​
14​
1.0800​
15​
1.101​
15​
1.1580​
15​
1.1190​
15​
1.0625​
15​
1.0800​
16​
1.100​
16​
1.1590​
16​
1.1190​
16​
1.0625​
16​
1.0800​
17​
1.100​
17​
1.1590​
17​
1.1190​
17​
1.0620​
17​
1.0800​
18​
1.100​
18​
1.1595​
18​
1.1190​
18​
1.0620​
18​
1.0800​
19​
1.100​
19​
1.1595​
19​
1.1190​
19​
1.0620​
19​
1.0800​
20​
1.099​
20​
1.1595​
20​
1.1190​
20​
1.0620​
20​
1.0795​
 

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This isn't a "365" problem, it's an auto pistol issue well recognized over decades. Really belongs in a general discussion rather than here. Whatever the cause, chambering the same round over and over is a common practice which PD's and military units which carry daily addressed by rotating ammo and minimizing unloading.

Since it's recognized that setback could occur, don't repeatedly chamber the ammo. That means stop unloading it so much. Why was the weapon being constantly unloaded? Usually to put in a institutional rack for administrative safekeeping, which is one of the causes of the problem. Do we carry with unloaded weapons? Is an unloaded weapon at home contrary to it's purpose? I just put mine in the safe loaded, I handle them as if they were loaded at all times anyway. If it's on me it's loaded, from safe to holster I don't need to reload it and it's much quicker to use when needed. .Traditions of administration are the cause, not the cure.

How many of us drain the gas tank of our car to keep it or the gas from being stolen? Nope, we secure it filled up.

Military issue ammo is typically crimped due to the stress of self loading and full auto cycling. Using uncrimped ammo, ie, ammo not designed for self feeding weapons is why so much setback does happen. . Reloaders at home frequently avoid crimping because it introduces another variable in the assembly, which then tends to be a procedure they discard in the search for the last available FPS or reduction in MOA. In combat or self defense ammo, tho, it's foot pounds delivered on target and 2MOA accuracy at range that is needed, and, that is all. For self defense, ammo factory crimped or DIY at home really doesn't make a significant difference. Choice of caliber does a lot more. I'm retiring .380 and .38 for that reason. We argue 9mm vs bigger but all too often carry smaller. More foot pounds usually stops fights quicker. A Kaboom will, too, however.

A third issue is inserting a magazine into a weapon with locked slide. Is that extra round that important, secondly, doesn't it cause issues when the mag doesn't lock into place? That's a constant complaint with new owners of AR15's, incorrect loading procedure. If the slide is open because you are out of ammo, then insert mag and chamber. We aren't going to pull it back out in a firefight to top it off, reinsert, fire, and feel the mag hit our foot. Nope, bad procedure is bad, don't do that in your bedroom either. Use the same practice rifle or pistol every reload and there's less chance of a mistake. If we are dropping the mag after we drop the slide we are practicing failure.

Many of us carry an extra magazine, having one extra boolit banged up and constantly reloaded going into the chamber is likely more problem than being short just one round in a firefight. Answer to that is move up from 6 to 10 rounds - which the 365 enjoys as it's biggest selling point. Problem solved. Nobody handed us a spare round when getting M9's issued for duty - 15 crimped rounds two magazines. Where do we draw the line on number of rounds? The more you carry the less one more has value. That extra round is really an artifact of the old small capacity single stack CCW days.

Most of the corrections for this problem have been instituted thru updated procedures and choosing the proper ammo for the weapon. Like, don't fire submachine gun ammo in M9's, don't use uncrimped ammo in your auto pistol. That might limit your choice to some degree however its increasing your effectiveness by decreasing your risk. Better to practice and be a better shooter. You will need less ammo.
 

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You can chamber the round, GENTLY release the slide onto the cartridge, then press inward on the rear of the extractor, while pushing the slide into battery. Pressing inward on the rear of the extractor removes nearly all of the spring force. I sincerely doubt that this will cause any damage to the extractor.
Perhaps you should just disassemble the pistol, put a round in the chamber, reinsert the barrel into the gun while sliding the cartridge rim under the extractor, put the recoil spring back in and then place to slide back on the receiver. Do you think this would over-complicate the process? How about we just stop cycling ammunition back into the chamber and there will be no issue.
 

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So, does anyone here know the quickest way to damage an extractor? Give up? The answer is, dropping a slide on a chambered round. Now to be serious here, never drop a slide on a chambered round. Pistols are not designed to function in this manner. Pistol extractors are not designed to snap over a cartridge rim. Pistol extractors are designed to have the cartridge rim slide up under their hook.
I never knew that prior to joining this forum. Actually really good info can be found here from time to time.
That is an urban legend. Maybe if the extractor was fixed like on older 1911.
Why do you think the extractor has the angled shape of the hook front? To "jump" over a rim. Surely that soft brass will be scratched, but next time your probably will rotate the bullet in the barrel, so a different part of rim will be scratched..
The spring on the back of extractor is there for a reason: to allow flexing outwards.
The extractor gets "flexed" outwards every time you eject a round (round gets rotated after extraction from barrel). What's more flexing when you chamber?
That being said, I usually spend some JHP at range too, to refresh them and to see if the gun still works well with them.
Where do we draw the line on number of rounds?
Here in VA the line was drawn for us... at 20 ;)

Military issue ammo is typically crimped due to the stress of self loading and full auto cycling.
I noticed that the Federal "Hydra-Shock" ammo is crimped too, as opposed to their cheaper "Punch" rounds. I guess the extra price has a reason, you get what you pay for.
Crimped.jpg
 

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E8BC57C4-1110-4E11-953E-06DBDA1DC1B2.jpeg
In my earlier post, this is the round I was talking about. .357 Sig. This round has been chambered multiple times. This is a factory Sig V Crown.
 

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I never knew that prior to joining this forum. Actually really good info can be found here from time to time.
Watch the video I posted in response to the broken extractor myth. Maybe a 1911 with a fixed extractor is susceptible to breaking, but modern firearms are designed so the extractor rides over the case rim. More likely to damage the brass case than do anything to the extractor.
 

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View attachment 403965 In my earlier post, this is the round I was talking about. .357 Sig. This round has been chambered multiple times. This is a factory Sig V Crown.
That .357 ammo cannot be crimped because necking.
See above my picture how the more expensive "Hydra-Shock" is crimped and the budget "Punch" is not. That should hold better against set-back forces.
It also depends a lot of the feed ramp angle. The sharpest that angle is, the more force is exerted on the bullet when chambering.
 
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