[GCBHM]

Not likely...this was really already expected.

 

[Twister]

Good for them, Sig's on a roll but your unfortunately probably right, 320 stuff is going to become even harder to come by.

 

[SMT]

I can only hope that Sig will dedicate some production lines to the p320 and once they can ramp up to full production rates the supply constraints will ease off. We'll see...

 

[southswede1]

Still trying to understand why Glock filed the protest. Seems like a simple enough ruling: Glock simply does not meet the requirements for the contract......

 

[Wrecks]

Still trying to understand why Glock filed the protest. Seems like a simple enough ruling: Glock simply does not meet the requirements for the contract......

They were probably sour that they didn't get the contract or there was some technicality that disqualified them that they were not aware of.

When the government submits an RFP it's usually 300 pages of documentation for even the simplest of orders. For a massive contract like this it could be 300 pages just in the appendices. Lots of things that can be overlooked by even the sharpest requirements analysts.


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[Scorpionbowl]

Still trying to understand why Glock filed the protest. Seems like a simple enough ruling: Glock simply does not meet the requirements for the contract......

They were probably sour that they didn't get the contract or there was some technicality that disqualified them that they were not aware of.

When the government submits an RFP it's usually 300 pages of documentation for even the simplest of orders. For a massive contract like this it could be 300 pages just in the appendices. Lots of things that can be overlooked by even the sharpest requirements analysts.


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Wrecks is right. Protests after contract awards are the rule not the exception. I have never seen a contract award rescinded myself but when incumbents do lose an existing contract it can be significant fit throwing with even politicians involvement for the big boys. Doesn't happen often and especially if the incumbent is the intellectual property holder. Beretta was doomed because this wasn't a design improvement to an existing design but a complete technology makeover and Sig had a leg up already. The contract check in the blocks for a complete and competitive RFP is unbelievably lengthy and development of one is an art form if you think bureaucracy is art. Glock just did the after last call dance.

 

[Sigarms228]

But but but the P320 has a high bore axis and the poly frame scratches easily and....

 

[Hansthehorse]

I believe the APX was the Beretta entry into the competition. It has the same kind of modular chassis as the 320 but the Sig was chosen. I'm trying to decide which one to buy right now. People seem to think the APX is ugly but I like the looks better than the 320.

 

[southswede1]

They were probably sour that they didn't get the contract or there was some technicality that disqualified them that they were not aware of.

When the government submits an RFP it's usually 300 pages of documentation for even the simplest of orders. For a massive contract like this it could be 300 pages just in the appendices. Lots of things that can be overlooked by even the sharpest requirements analysts.


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Yeah the whole FCU concept was so well hidden that for Glock, it's as if it wasn't even noticed. ;-)

 

[timmybosko]

Wrecks is right. Protests after contract awards are the rule not the exception. I have never seen a contract award rescinded myself but when incumbents do lose an existing contract it can be significant fit throwing with even politicians involvement for the big boys. Doesn't happen often and especially if the incumbent is the intellectual property holder. Beretta was doomed because this wasn't a design improvement to an existing design but a complete technology makeover and Sig had a leg up already. The contract check in the blocks for a complete and competitive RFP is unbelievably lengthy and development of one is an art form if you think bureaucracy is art. Glock just did the after last call dance.

100% true.. I work for a Defense Contractor and we win contracts all the time and they are protested all the time.

We have had wins rescinded though.. it doesn't happen too often but it does..

 

[GCBHM]

Still trying to understand why Glock filed the protest. Seems like a simple enough ruling: Glock simply does not meet the requirements for the contract......

Actually Glock does meat the requirements, but there is some speculation over how Sig got the plans to build a gun that fits the "requirements" to the letter. Smacks of corruption, although some contest the notion vehemently. I don't know why given the culture of corruption in our government, but it is doubtful anything will come of the protest. Glock really doesn't want to lose the current contracts it has with the US military, especially considering the P320 is, as yet, unproven.

 

[Thompson415]

Glock can't seem to grasp that they aren't the only polymer stricker fired game in town. It took them how long to come up with the G43? Glock will really be hurting if and when more and more LEO's go to the P320 and leave them behind.

 

[RatBikeRod]

Looks like their model has the pre-milled slide. I wish they would do this on all of the X-Change kits.

 

[GCBHM]

Glock can't seem to grasp that they aren't the only polymer stricker fired game in town. It took them how long to come up with the G43? Glock will really be hurting if and when more and more LEO's go to the P320 and leave them behind.

Not hardly. While the P320 is a nice pistol, it isn't for everyone anymore than Glocks are for everyone. Nothing is going to leave Glock behind, and to think so is just being shortsighted. Granted Glock did not want to lose the bid, but the fact is the Glock is here to stay. What a lot of folks don't seem to understand is that Europeans are vastly different than Americans, and Glock is no different.

It took years for Mercedes-Benz to finally start putting decent cup holders in their cars. For years those who were not diehard Mercedes owners lamented over the fact that these cars did not come with adequate cup holders, but after years of pandering MB finally produced vehicles with over the top cup holders just like all the others. The thing is MB built the first luxury car, and they believed they know more about how to build fine cars than anyone. Their mindset is "we will build the car, you just drive the car".

Glock didn't need to make a single stack 9mm. Why? They simply didn't want to. It isn't what they started out making, and clearly isn't what they wanted to make for years. Who cares if you want a SS9! Go buy one...that wasn't what Glock made. If you wanted a no frills, reliable, light, higher capacity and cost effective tool that you can trust your life to then you'll buy a Glock. But they're junk, they said. They're plastic, they said. Glock will never last, they said. Now they're all building "Glocks".

Glock owns so much of the market that it would take a LONG time for anyone to catch up to them, and even with all the newer, more "innovative" designs now on the market, they're all still playing a very difficult game of catch up. "OH you're just a Glock fanboy"...no...I'm a realist. Glock owns the market in more ways than one, and what a lot of you don't seem to get is that while the Sig is a fantastic option for anyone, it's still just an option. Glock is the standard.

IF the P320 proves to be as reliable as the Glock, and I don't mean just shooting the gun...I mean how long can it shoot without cleaning, how much abuse can it really take, how easy are they to work on and keep running, etc., then Glock may have something to be concerned about, but not until then.

 

[GCBHM]

Looks like their model has the pre-milled slide. I wish they would do this on all of the X-Change kits.

I thought so, too! I'm betting there will be some Romeo testing going on along the way.

 

[Signify]

Not hardly. While the P320 is a nice pistol, it isn't for everyone anymore than Glocks are for everyone. Nothing is going to leave Glock behind, and to think so is just being shortsighted. Granted Glock did not want to lose the bid, but the fact is the Glock is here to stay. What a lot of folks don't seem to understand is that Europeans are vastly different than Americans, and Glock is no different.

It took years for Mercedes-Benz to finally start putting decent cup holders in their cars. For years those who were not diehard Mercedes owners lamented over the fact that these cars did not come with adequate cup holders, but after years of pandering MB finally produced vehicles with over the top cup holders just like all the others. The thing is MB built the first luxury car, and they believed they know more about how to build fine cars than anyone. Their mindset is "we will build the car, you just drive the car".

Glock didn't need to make a single stack 9mm. Why? They simply didn't want to. It isn't what they started out making, and clearly isn't what they wanted to make for years. Who cares if you want a SS9! Go buy one...that wasn't what Glock made. If you wanted a no frills, reliable, light, higher capacity and cost effective tool that you can trust your life to then you'll buy a Glock. But they're junk, they said. They're plastic, they said. Glock will never last, they said. Now they're all building "Glocks".

Glock owns so much of the market that it would take a LONG time for anyone to catch up to them, and even with all the newer, more "innovative" designs now on the market, they're all still playing a very difficult game of catch up. "OH you're just a Glock fanboy"...no...I'm a realist. Glock owns the market in more ways than one, and what a lot of you don't seem to get is that while the Sig is a fantastic option for anyone, it's still just an option. Glock is the standard.

IF the P320 proves to be as reliable as the Glock, and I don't mean just shooting the gun...I mean how long can it shoot without cleaning, how much abuse can it really take, how easy are they to work on and keep running, etc., then Glock may have something to be concerned about, but not until then.

Well said on all points. As an owner of both a Glock and a Sig P320 I have no dog in the fight, and think they are both excellent guns. I shoot the 320 more accurately but my Glock has not had a single FTF FTE or whatever in 5 years of ownership and thousands of rounds. It's not the most accurate (for me) but it's accurate enough and goes bang 10/10 times. I'm sure it will be no different for the 320, however, because Sig has built a reputation of engineering quality guns for decades. Of course, time will tell, but considering our military has already equipped Sigs in the past with success, I'm sure the confidence in the brand was already there. The final thing I'll add is that the MHS test requires 2,000 mean rounds between stoppages, 10,000 mean rounds between failures, and a 35,000 round service life. So, if the 320 passed those requirements, I'm sure it will be fine. To be fair, we (the Marines) beat the sh*t out of our M9s and they still functioned pretty darn well.

 

[GCBHM]

Well said on all points. As an owner of both a Glock and a Sig P320 I have no dog in the fight, and think they are both excellent guns. I shoot the 320 more accurately but my Glock has not had a single FTF FTE or whatever in 5 years of ownership and thousands of rounds. It's not the most accurate (for me) but it's accurate enough and goes bang 10/10 times. I'm sure it will be no different for the 320, however, because Sig has built a reputation of engineering quality guns for decades. Of course, time will tell, but considering our military has already equipped Sigs in the past with success, I'm sure the confidence in the brand was already there. The final thing I'll add is that the MHS test requires 2,000 mean rounds between stoppages, 10,000 mean rounds between failures, and a 35,000 round service life. So, if the 320 passed those requirements, I'm sure it will be fine. To be fair, we (the Marines) beat the sh*t out of our M9s and they still functioned pretty darn well.

I'm sure the P320 will do fine as it relates to shooting the hell out of the gun. I don't own one, but I have shot a couple and believe they're solid guns. Smooth shooters for sure! I really don't doubt the P320 will do as well as the M9, which served with distinction. It will probably do better, but I always get a kick out of it when anyone says this gun is the "Glock killer" or that some new gun is going to leave Glock in the dust. It's just laughable. I mean Glocks are being used all over the world, and have been for years. The Sig has a chance to compete on the world stage, unlike the M&P or XD, but with the likes of the HK VP series, I think it will be too hard for any one gun to capture the market the way Glock was able to in the 80s. There are just too many options available, and that leaves the Glock pretty secure where it is, IMO.

 

[steved13]

Looks like their model has the pre-milled slide. I wish they would do this on all of the X-Change kits.

I always wonder what the added cost is for this type of thing in the manufacturing process. It's all ready being milled, can it really be that much extra for the optic area when everything else is already being milled? I can't imagine it take more than a little extra time in the machine, and obviously the programming has been done. Just some thoughts I have no idea actually.

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[jeff s]

Short term shortage; long term abundance.