SIG Talk banner
1 - 15 of 15 Posts

馃帠USAF Retired
Joined
663 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Was at Front Sight for a handgun refresher when an instructor pointed out a feature of the P320 that I hadn't noticed before. He also claims that the Sig is the only one with this behavior.

During malfunction training, we we taught to recognize certain malfunctions by the response to a trigger pull. If the gun "clicks" without firing then the problem is a dead round or an empty chamber. The action to take is the classic "Tap-Rack".

If pulling the trigger does not result in the "click" (because the slide did not reset forward and the hammer (or striker) was also not reset), then the malfunction type cannot be directly ascertained without looking into the exposed ejection port. One cause is a stovepipe; clearing it is identical to the one above ("Tap-Rack"). The other case is a double feed; this requires a much more complicated clearing procedure (lock the slide, strip the mag, rack the slide several times, load a mag, rack it)

Here's where the P320 screws this up...if the slide is not forward due to a stovepipe, the trigger will still trip. This would lead one to assume the first malfunction and perform a "Tap-Rack" to clear. This would be wrong.

Curious what others think about this (Note: I've verified that mine does this as well).
 

Registered
Joined
428 Posts
It's perfect for dry fire practice, making it easily the best option available outside of a dedicated SIRT gun.
Also, it takes more time on the gun but you can feel the difference between the striker releasing and just the reset click. It's easily a benefit worth the very minor drawback.
 

馃帠USAF Retired
Joined
663 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Tap rack is not the best way to clear a stove pipe.
No, a Stovepipe (at least the way Front Sight uses the term) is when spent brass did not clear the ejection port and is trapped by the returning slide. Tap Rack IS the correct method to clear that. On the other hand Tap rack is NOT the way to clear a double feed. Normally both of these would be indicated by a dead trigger (i.e. not reset).

edit: Note that by not resetting the trigger until the slide is completely forward is a means of ensuring a round cannot be fired out of battery. I guess the more I think about the the more confused I am about why Sig would design it this way...
 

Banned
Joined
6,286 Posts
No, a Stovepipe (at least the way Front Sight uses the term) is when spent brass did not clear the ejection port and is trapped by the returning slide. Tap Rack IS the correct method to clear that. On the other hand Tap rack is NOT the way to clear a double feed. Normally both of these would be indicated by a dead trigger (i.e. not reset).

edit: Note that by not resetting the trigger until the slide is completely forward is a means of ensuring a round cannot be fired out of battery. I guess the more I think about the the more confused I am about why Sig would design it this way...
My guess is that Sig didn't design the gun this way, it's just an unfortunate disadvantage to the design. I think all guns have advantages and disadvantages, as it were, albeit some more than others. I think you're right, though, wrt clearing the malfunctions. More times than not the auto response to clear is, and should be the TRF method, but that isn't always the answer. Awareness is critical, as I'm sure you know, and this is where training with the weapon you're going to carry is so important. The more familiar you are with your weapon of choice the quicker you're going to be able to clear a malfunction, which, simply stated, is ANY occurrence in which a gun does not fire when it is supposed to (meaning you intend to fire the gun, and, for some reason, it does not).

As long as you know the characteristics of your gun there should be no problem. We know all guns can and will malfunction, but when it comes to top tier guns, like the P320, it ins't going to malfunction much. This is comforting in one sense, but it also tends to lull us into a false sense of perfection that can get us killed. It's good to train like this. One reason why is this very post. It starts critical thinking, which ought to lead to discussion. I think the first response to clear any malfunction ought to be the TRF method. I know some argue that you ought to assess the situation first, and that sounds good...and in training scenarios it may be the most feasible thing to do b/c you know you're in a sterile environment; however, the reason we train, or one of the reasons, is to familiarize yourself with your gun. Knowing how your gun tends to malfunction will lend itself to giving you the knowledge you need in order to be able to clear that malfunction efficiently.

Back to the trained "first response" being the TRF, most malfunctions are going to be cleared this way, and if/when you're in the middle of a fight, where time is of the essence, you don't always have time to take a step back, check your gun out thoroughly, clear a jam, then get back in the fight. Again, this is not to say that the TRF is the end all solution to ever problem, but I think we'd all agree that most problems can be solved quickly with this procedure. If it does not clear the jam then you're going to have to take another look to see what the problem is, and hopefully you'll be able to take cover. I can say this, however. I tend not to carry a gun that is prone to malfunction. Generally speaking, I think if a top tier gun isn't running smoothly then it has a problem that needs to be addressed whether it be replacing an internal part or a more serious issue that needs professional attention, after which the gun is ready to be pressed back into service. If you're not running a top tier gun then maybe you should consider doing so, but that is a discussion for another thread.
 

馃帠USA Veteran Premium Member
Joined
9,057 Posts
I don't think what you are describing really matters. We are talking about an "EMERGENCY action operation". A "tap, rack, bang" situation should be an immediate action requiring less than a couple of seconds after a weapon fails to fire. If one is training to listen for a sound and then interpret that sound before taking an emergency action, ones response time is going to be greatly increased.

Emergency actions have to be immediate natural action practiced to perfection.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GCBHM

Registered
Joined
4,765 Posts
Fairly meaningless, IMO. Trigger feel has nothing to do with how I decide to clear a malf regardless of whether I am shooting one of my 320s or one of my DA/SAs or DAK. (I train malfs in a specific class roughly every month; my guns aren't spontaneously malfing all the time :))

After your gun fails and you are bringing it in for remedial action, you can almost always immediately tell what is wrong with it just by glancing at the breech/ejection port. If you see a Type 3, you skip the TRB and go right to Type 3 clearance.
 

Registered
Joined
1,793 Posts
Ok, I will admit to not training for this; What is the best way to do so? Add a dummy round to a magazine or is there a better way.

Be gentle, I am not a total idiot (unless you ask my wife...)
 

Registered
Joined
4,765 Posts
Ok, I will admit to not training for this; What is the best way to do so? Add a dummy round to a magazine or is there a better way.

Be gentle, I am not a total idiot (unless you ask my wife...)
NOTE: dummy rounds only, obviously, in an otherwise clear gun and safe, ammo-free room.

To set up a Type 3, begin with the slide locked back on an empty chamber. Manually insert a round directly into the chamber through the ejection port, then insert a loaded mag and release the slide forward. Your gun will try to strip a round out of the mag and feed it, but it can't because there is already a round in the chamber (simulating a failure to extract). The round from the mag will simply get pushed up against the chambered round. This is what is commonly referred to as a "double feed," but is actually a failure to extract.

Start from full extension, align your sights, and pull the trigger. You will have a failure, so bring the gun in for remedial action, glancing at the chamber as you do so. You should be able to identify the "failure to extract" pretty readily.

The procedure for a failure to extract (Type 3) can vary depending on who trains you. The standard is to lock back the slide to relieve pressure on the mag, strip the mag, cycle the slide a few times to clear it, then reinsert the mag (or a different one), and rack again to chamber a round.

Other folks simply release the mag and rack the slide a few times without ever locking the slide, then reinsert and rack to chamber.

If you can't decide what type of malf you have as you are bringing the gun in, then you TRB. If that doesn't work, then you are going to have to take the time to inspect and diagnose, hopefully after taking cover.

Clint Smith has an excellent video on YouTube for malf clearance:

 

Registered
Joined
4,765 Posts
Thanks DBS, greatly appreciated!
Sure thing. Clint is the man.

I should clarify what I meant when I said "bringing the gun in for remedial action." After a failure, I tap and then tilt the gun in preparation for racking it. That exposes the breech, and if I see a Type 3 then I stop the TRB and go right to a Type 3 clearance.

Sometimes trying to explain stuff is harder than actually doing it!
 

Registered
Joined
761 Posts
Was at Front Sight for a handgun refresher when an instructor pointed out a feature of the P320 that I hadn't noticed before. He also claims that the Sig is the only one with this behavior.

During malfunction training, we we taught to recognize certain malfunctions by the response to a trigger pull. If the gun "clicks" without firing then the problem is a dead round or an empty chamber. The action to take is the classic "Tap-Rack".

If pulling the trigger does not result in the "click" (because the slide did not reset forward and the hammer (or striker) was also not reset), then the malfunction type cannot be directly ascertained without looking into the exposed ejection port. One cause is a stovepipe; clearing it is identical to the one above ("Tap-Rack"). The other case is a double feed; this requires a much more complicated clearing procedure (lock the slide, strip the mag, rack the slide several times, load a mag, rack it)

Here's where the P320 screws this up...if the slide is not forward due to a stovepipe, the trigger will still trip. This would lead one to assume the first malfunction and perform a "Tap-Rack" to clear. This would be wrong.

Curious what others think about this (Note: I've verified that mine does this as well).
I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, but if I follow correctly, there is a flaw in this. If the slide is back in a stovepipe situation, the striker will not be released. You will get a click, from the FCU, but no striker. If you are training for the "feel" of the trigger, there is quite a difference in feel between the striker and the FCU click.

I don't think I could ever train enough to not look where I am "tapping" and then I would see that it's stovepiped anyway? But that might just be me.
 

馃帠USA Veteran Premium Member
Joined
9,057 Posts
We use dummy rounds set up for us with the same casings and hollowpoint as the service ammo. We use a spent primer. For safety reasons we keep them stored separate, paint the butts ends red, and take a box of 50 to the range. We don't leave until we have all 50 back in the box. Magazines are set up with live rounds and dummy rounds. If you double stack the dummies you end up with a secondary drill at some point.

The qualifications course I held always include at least one dummy round.
 

Registered
Joined
1,793 Posts
We use dummy rounds set up for us with the same casings and hollowpoint as the service ammo. We use a spent primer. For safety reasons we keep them stored separate, paint the butts ends red, and take a box of 50 to the range. We don't leave until we have all 50 back in the box. Magazines are set up with live rounds and dummy rounds. If you double stack the dummies you end up with a secondary drill at some point.

The qualifications course I held always include at least one dummy round.
I am going to build me some dummy rounds like this to have for testing. This has been very helpful for me to read and watch that video.

This site is always a great source of insight and inspiration!
 

Registered
Joined
26 Posts
TAP, TILT, RACK, READY (OR REASSESS) is the best starting point to clear ANY malfunction, even a double feed (Failure to extract). In the past some methods were taught to sweep the round with your support hand for a stovepipe (failure to eject), however many people inadvertently put their hand in front of the muzzle. Using TTRR is easy and can clear most of the malfunctions a shooter will encounter if done properly. Its done this way for consistency.
 
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top