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I'm of two minds about that. On one hand you are correct, the right to self defense shouldn't be conditional on getting what amounts to a permission slip from the government. At the same time however, there are people out there who have absolutely no clue how to safely handle the gun they're carrying, let alone shoot it accurately under stress. I wish there was a way to weed out the idiots who make us all look bad while not making it hard for the rest of us. Of course I could apply the exact same analogy to driving.
And parenting.
 

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Every five years. I'm just a private CCW holder. You're right, Illinois requirements might be the worst in the country. If i wasn't a veteran it would cost me $250 for class then another $150 to state police to issue permit.
They want to raise the FOID cost and they just submitted
Illinois: Bills Filed For Gun Registration & to Ban Gun Modifications & Private Transfers

Stay tuned.
 

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I'm of two minds about that. On one hand you are correct, the right to self defense shouldn't be conditional on getting what amounts to a permission slip from the government. At the same time however, there are people out there who have absolutely no clue how to safely handle the gun they're carrying, let alone shoot it accurately under stress. I wish there was a way to weed out the idiots who make us all look bad while not making it hard for the rest of us. Of course I could apply the exact same analogy to driving.
So I get punished because others are not up to your standards? There will always be those types. If we applied this logic to everything, we would not be able to do anything, and yes many of those things can kill others.

It's not a right if you have to get permission and pay. When a criminal can just walk out of their house armed but I have to pay the govt and pass their tests to protect me and mine who is untowardly burdened? Thanks for helping them out.
 

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We are a Nation used to "plenty" and time is the measurement. I think the measurement for ammunition in the future is going to be based upon events vs. time. If things continue with the fear of riots and other disruptions including threats of our freedom of arms, the demand will continue to expand for ammo. Therefore we will continue to face shortages. It could go through the length of the current governing administration.
 

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The panic is in the USA, the rest of the world is taking ammo from all over the place (specially Europe manufactere) with no problems!
 

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So I get punished because others are not up to your standards? There will always be those types. If we applied this logic to everything, we would not be able to do anything, and yes many of those things can kill others.
Unfortunately when you live around other people, especially in more densely populated areas, your actions have consequences to lots of other people. Take driving for example. There are far too many "accidents" that simply aren't accidents. I'm not talking DUI, I mean people that are just dangers to others on the road because they either don't understand proper driving or they just don't have visual acuity or spatial recognition ability to interpret the location of other vehicles on the road, or perhaps they are just outright selfish and don't care who they hurt so long as they get to where they are going. Those folks ruin it for the people that do know how to drive properly. This is also the reason for many of the ridiculously low speed limits on roads.

So the problem is, do you open up the floodgates and let everyone do whatever the hell they want, despite causing chaos and harm to others, or do you have to reign things in. I don't like the reign things in part, but I also don't want to deal with the fools making right turns on red in front of me when I am right there and have the right of way. The problem is, these incompetent folks are a legitimate problem that have to be dealt with so the rest of us don't die.

Would you want to be shooting at the range with folks pointing their muzzles toward you when they reload and keeping their fingers on the trigger even when they aren't getting ready to shoot. Hard pass on that.
 

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I think it comes down to being able to distinguish what's constructive from what's restrictive or burdensome....and to me it comes down to what it's motivated by, in particular faith vs. fear.
 
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There are rights and there are privileges.

There needs to be consequences for those that can’t follow the law or rules, not create more laws or rules that burden others or take away their rights.

It’s a proven fact that criminals don’t follow the laws and stupid is just stupid so hold them accountable.
 

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The difficulty is that many times we can only determine who is who after they've done something stupid. But that's the risk we take on with any freedom.
 

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Unfortunately when you live around other people, especially in more densely populated areas, your actions have consequences to lots of other people. Take driving for example. There are far too many "accidents" that simply aren't accidents. I'm not talking DUI, I mean people that are just dangers to others on the road because they either don't understand proper driving or they just don't have visual acuity or spatial recognition ability to interpret the location of other vehicles on the road, or perhaps they are just outright selfish and don't care who they hurt so long as they get to where they are going. Those folks ruin it for the people that do know how to drive properly. This is also the reason for many of the ridiculously low speed limits on roads.

So the problem is, do you open up the floodgates and let everyone do whatever the hell they want, despite causing chaos and harm to others, or do you have to reign things in. I don't like the reign things in part, but I also don't want to deal with the fools making right turns on red in front of me when I am right there and have the right of way. The problem is, these incompetent folks are a legitimate problem that have to be dealt with so the rest of us don't die.

Would you want to be shooting at the range with folks pointing their muzzles toward you when they reload and keeping their fingers on the trigger even when they aren't getting ready to shoot. Hard pass on that.
Straw man argument. There is no amendment protecting the right to drive a car on public roads. You should absolutely avoid places where poor gun safety exist. The person YOU want to DEAL with those incompetent people, will not be competent, but he will be armed
 

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That whole mindset is what's driving the shortage and resulting high prices. If only we would all take a deep breath and stop panic-buying for awhile the ammo would come back. It won't as long as the sheer number of people trying to buy it remains so far above the amount of ammo that can be cranked out.
What ‘mindset’? I capitalized NEED. I haven’t bought any ammo in over a year. I have a good supply. By NEED I meant new gun owners who need it. A gun without ammo is useless and there are millions of new gun owners late to the game who need it and should get what they can now before ammo becomes a distant memory or too expensive for peasants to own.
 

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Once a year our large club has "police appreciation day" where we invite area LE to come and shoot our stuff from sniper weapons to pistols to sub guns and everything else.
Special weapons guys rarely show up and those guys warned me never RSO the police appreciation day as it is too dangerous.
Wut???
I listen to the advice of the door kickers
You should hear the reports from the RSO meetings. NDs, pointing loaded weapons everywhere, touching, holding, picking up weapons when its cold and people are down range just about every violation in a few hours we do not see from a whole year of us civilians.
Mind you these are not SWAT or real gun guys most of us have met and respect. These are the patrol men/women who became a cop and really don't know a lot about guns and have as much passion for shooting and guns as they do paperwork and pencils

Remember the basic principle of freedom; guns, cars, what ever.
You have to do something to lose your freedom.
You do not have to prove you are worthy to get freedoms.
Many countries demand you pass their tests to have rights. Here you are born with them and give them up when you violate the laws and infringe on other people's rights and freedoms
We are unique in that and I prefer that over control.
Freedom is more risky than tyranny
 
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It seems that places you need a carry pistol, they don't want you to have one. Just keep your mouth shut and be a good victim! Where the laws are for concealed carry the odds of you needing one are slim. Always carry anyway! Here in Maine if your not a criminal you can own and carry without a permit. That's the way it should be for all 50 states! Then the crime rate would drop dramality!
 

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They want to raise the FOID cost and they just submitted
Illinois: Bills Filed For Gun Registration & to Ban Gun Modifications & Private Transfers

Stay tuned.
I don't want to deal with the headaches of moving but illinois is becoming more and more hostile to folks like myself and big buisness as well. Illinois is the 2nd most corrupt state in the country the last I heard. It shows more and more all the time.
 

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I don't want to deal with the headaches of moving but illinois is becoming more and more hostile to folks like myself and big buisness as well. Illinois is the 2nd most corrupt state in the country the last I heard. It shows more and more all the time.
It sounds like they want to turn up the heat on gun ownership and balance the budget on the backs of the folks who are just trying to keep their families safe. Seems to be the theme song for all of the states that are hostile to firearm ownership.
 

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Straw man argument. There is no amendment protecting the right to drive a car on public roads. You should absolutely avoid places where poor gun safety exist. The person YOU want to DEAL with those incompetent people, will not be competent, but he will be armed
As TerminalSigness and others have said. The right to bear arms is a Right, not a privilege. There is no middle ground on that fact. It not up to any other man to determine whether you can or cannot exercise your God given rights. If you relinquish your rights you are no longer a free person. Actually not even a human being at that point.
 

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Good discussion, but I think we've wandered waayyyy off original topic.
Sooo.....When will the ammo shortage end??

Watching various websites; and thanks to many of us who refused to buy at the quadruple prices; I'm betting it's just beginning to turn the corner.
Ohh, it will never return to 2019, but for shooting sports to survive I think it needs to get back to under 40 cents for 9mm, readily available at our LGS.

Call me an optimist; but I'm holding out and curtailing my shooting to a minimum, just once a week to stretch my stock until sanity returns.
I'm betting the speculators and hoarders will get caught with over-priced inventory, and start panic selling! 😁
 

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maybe supply will catch up with demand soon, whether that is because of decreased demand, or increased supply.
i have seen threads asking how much ammo they can store on top of their safe...so people are running out of floor space.
what i have not been able to tell is how many just want a few boxes to shoot or how many are buying as much as they can.
if you look at some proposed legislation, some people that shoot more than 10 rounds every month are planning for the worst,
 
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