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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Not sure if someone has asked this question before on this forum, but I am curious as to what other members think about carrying a finished 80% P228/229 as a carry gun, given the person assembling it has been through an armorers course and has a decent sense of how things go together? I have been looking into these as I like the ability to start from scratch and go super custom with the build (as far as barrel, internals, etc) without having to spend extra money on top of the original gun. My father is a certified Glock and Sig armorer, so he would be assisting with the build, ensuring everything is done properly.

I know some worry about the legal ramifications of 80% weapons for SD, but aside from that, are there any other reasons to not consider an 80% build for carry?

Sorry again if this has been asked before; I saw nothing in the search for the first couple pages. Any and all input is appreciated!
 

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I could see a zealous prosecutor attempt to confuse a naive jury by painting you as some kind of nut who "built his own gun in his basement in order to stay under the radar of the government." That could influence a jury who was charged with determining whether your shoot was legitimate, or whether you went looking for it. For instance, just imagine if Zimmerman had had a ghost gun...

Would a DA actually do that? I don't know. Would they be successful if they tried? I don't know.

But there are SO many factory pistols that can serve the SD role well; it's probably more prudent to carry one of them. Just this guy's opinion.

That said, if the gun has proved itself with 500-1000 flawless rounds of your carry ammo, then I'd not have any concerns in the reliability department.
 

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what does 80% mean??
Essentially, it is a partially complete gun that just requires some at-home, DIY finishing touches by the end-user to produce a functioning firearm.

When done right, these do not require serial numbers, background checks, or 4473 transfers. They are commonly referred to as "ghost guns" because they are off the government's grid.
 

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The Frame have a Transaction record? or did you buy it from a 3rd party in a state that does not hinder private transfers?

In either case, careful attention to detail of assembly, function and a record of consistent practice will shut up the DA's case. You were just a Firearms mechanic breathing old life into a STANDARD CONFIGURATION weapon. There is the kicker.

If you are doing Armory refresh, you are working on the weapon up to standard. The sticky stuff comes when you do "Trigger Jobs", or use hand loaded ammunition. Those go to the Intent. This is not a core factor, but a mitigating factor.

For example. You buy a CPO trade in. You clean it up, do a Spring refresh (Like I just did) and install a SIG standard short reach trigger. Maybe put a better set of grips on it because the old ones were cracked. You can get plenty of expert witnesses in court to say "This was just putting Mag wheels on a car".

Now going and making it a Pin Gun, or a IPSC pistol and carrying that on the street with optics and light, that might be seen a little different.y.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
So...where exactly do you get a Sig Sauer P226 80% ? Is it a replica or aftermarket frame with the same dimensions?
what does 80% mean??
There's a company called Matrix Precision that makes *almost* complete (technically 80% complete according to ATF ruling) frames for the P229 in which you machine the slide rails and I believe another portion of the firearm, which turns the frame into a full-fledged firearm, instead of just a piece of metal, which is all an 80% frame is considered. Since you are manufacturing the firearm yourself, it does not require a serial, nor require it to be registered under any NFA/ATF form, but also cannot be transferred to anyone, whether gift or sale. These have been around with ARs for quite some time now, and I actually got a decent amount of them in my pre-election buying frenzy in case they were something that got put on Santa's naughty list after said election. The AR ones require you to mill out the trigger pocket, and some even required you to drill holes for the detent pins. You can use standard P228/229 parts kits ordered from Sig to manufacture the gun, but have the potential to deck it out with aftermarket parts (greyguns trigger, QTR trigger, lighter springs, custom barrel/sights, etc) from the get go, essentially making your own "homebrew Legion."

I suppose it would make more sense to use an already proven firearm for a SD weapon, and use something like this for a more competition oriented firearm, as you could have better slide/frame rail matching and machine a barrel to fit both pieces perfectly, and not always be anxious it's going to fall apart when you need it to save your life. The DA thing is kind of what I was worried about; getting painted as a psychopath who carries around his own frankensteined WMD that he manufactured in his basement with secret magic voodoo and satanic rituals, on top of slaving over his workbench for hours to perfect the lightest, most deadly trigger mechanism man has ever seen, and manufacturing it to work with the manslaughter boolits he droned away on for days on his evil reloading machinery with no intent other than to steal the life of an innocent individual.

Always enjoy the wealth of knowledge and input from everyone on this forum; thanks all :)
 

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The Frame have a Transaction record? or did you buy it from a 3rd party in a state that does not hinder private transfers?

In either case, careful attention to detail of assembly, function and a record of consistent practice will shut up the DA's case. You were just a Firearms mechanic breathing old life into a STANDARD CONFIGURATION weapon. There is the kicker.

If you are doing Armory refresh, you are working on the weapon up to standard. The sticky stuff comes when you do "Trigger Jobs", or use hand loaded ammunition. Those go to the Intent. This is not a core factor, but a mitigating factor.

For example. You buy a CPO trade in. You clean it up, do a Spring refresh (Like I just did) and install a SIG standard short reach trigger. Maybe put a better set of grips on it because the old ones were cracked. You can get plenty of expert witnesses in court to say "This was just putting Mag wheels on a car".

Now going and making it a Pin Gun, or a IPSC pistol and carrying that on the street with optics and light, that might be seen a little different.y.
Lets be clear on what an 80% gun project is. It is not rehabbing or refurbishing a used gun, or assembling a gun from factory parts. We're not talking about armorer-level work; completing an 80% gun requires tools and a skillset in excess of that.

When someone takes on a ghost gun project, they complete the machining of what is otherwise merely a piece of unserialized metal. And when they are done they have a legal, unserialized firearm that was never 4473'd and did not come from the factory (although components of it may have, such as internals, sights, etc).
 

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There's a company called Matrix Precision that makes *almost* complete (technically 80% complete according to ATF ruling) frames for the P229 in which you machine the slide rails and I believe another portion of the firearm, which turns the frame into a full-fledged firearm, instead of just a piece of metal, which is all an 80% frame is considered. Since you are manufacturing the firearm yourself, it does not require a serial, nor require it to be registered under any NFA/ATF form, but also cannot be transferred to anyone, whether gift or sale. These have been around with ARs for quite some time now, and I actually got a decent amount of them in my pre-election buying frenzy in case they were something that got put on Santa's naughty list after said election. The AR ones require you to mill out the trigger pocket, and some even required you to drill holes for the detent pins. You can use standard P228/229 parts kits ordered from Sig to manufacture the gun, but have the potential to deck it out with aftermarket parts (greyguns trigger, QTR trigger, lighter springs, custom barrel/sights, etc) from the get go, essentially making your own "homebrew Legion."

I suppose it would make more sense to use an already proven firearm for a SD weapon, and use something like this for a more competition oriented firearm, as you could have better slide/frame rail matching and machine a barrel to fit both pieces perfectly, and not always be anxious it's going to fall apart when you need it to save your life. The DA thing is kind of what I was worried about; getting painted as a psychopath who carries around his own frankensteined WMD that he manufactured in his basement with secret magic voodoo and satanic rituals, on top of slaving over his workbench for hours to perfect the lightest, most deadly trigger mechanism man has ever seen, and manufacturing it to work with the manslaughter boolits he droned away on for days on his evil reloading machinery with no intent other than to steal the life of an innocent individual.

Always enjoy the wealth of knowledge and input from everyone on this forum; thanks all :)
maybe a range gun but i'd never use it for sd/hd.

thanks
 

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What is the advantage to having a gun with no serial number?
 

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Love to weigh in here. So I've built a few of these (2) with the intent of having a good shooting range guns. They're both from P228 kits, one railed the other not. I'll tell you it's all about attention to detail and the close inspection of the parts in the kit. i own a factory built P229 and I gotta tell you gents, my 2 builds are just as accurate, slide rails are cut and measured to the same specs and they're just as reliable. I can hear all the laughing and feel the doubt in the air lol. I keep data books for all my firearms to track round counts and ammo type for basic maintenance and I've put 900 rds through my P228 non-rail and coming up on 700 rds through my P228R, zero issues!! I clean and inspect every firearm I own after use for signs of degradation or wear. I perform a detailed strip of the firearm after every 500rds to inspect all other parts for mechanical discrepancies, hence the need for the gunbook. The smoothness of the action, achievable accuracy, and just down right dependability of my P228 non-railed build was enough for me to decide to carry it as my EDC; I'm willing to bet my life on it. In the unlikely chance that I'm forced to use it, I'm confident that the severity of the issue will out weigh it's being a "built firearm". You guys have got to stop using the term "Ghost Gun", it brings validity to the idiots' arguments and fuels the fire. You know there are federal direction on how to serialize your built firearms, and I'm sure that will show your not trying to stay under the radar.

Anyway, you guys wanna see pics?!!
 

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I would never carry any gun that doesn't have a factory serial number, you are asking for trouble. I know some people like to tinker, but leave it as a range only or competition gun. Why would you want to carry a non serialized firearm? You might as well file off a serial number of a production gun and carry it.

If you have to use your firearm and shoot someone, you are without a question guilty of homicide. The death certificate for the individual will read homicide as well. The point you will have to defend in court is if the homicide was justified. Even if no charges are filed by police or you win you case, you still may face a wrongful death suite with the family members. Just be ready to be picked apart for everything.

Remember it is not always the person that's in the right that wins these suits. I have read several times where someone injured themself breaking into a home and won against the homeowner. That isn't right but it happens.
Completely disagree and it's not at all like filing a serial number off a factory gun, horrible comparison. And you must've missed the part about legally serializing a home build.

Homicide really, lol, I'm not sure you'd be able to speak in absolutes concerning this matter. I've known of cases where an unlicensed individual has ended an altercation with a firearm and was not charged, both by presenting it and using it.

I'll do you a favor and pull the actual verbage for you but the federal law states that a private party can build a firearm for personal use, would you or a lawyer argue self defense or personal protection isn't personal use?
 

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To me, working on a 80% receiver is not a covert act of getting around the rules. It's my way of challenging myself and testing my mechanical abilities. Saying that a 80% receiver build is anything else is a serious case of Psychological projection.
Follow the rules when building and it is perfectly legal. Criminals, are criminals. They don't want to do things the hard way. It's much easier to break into a place and steal a gun than to build one. Let alone build one that functions.
 
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