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Again, Greg Ellifritz, the author of the Buckeye Firearms Association study, determined that the pistol rounds he studied were all so close in terminal performance that he shoots 9mm... He's an LEO, a respected firearms trainer, and an educated guy, and he doesn't base his conclusions on marketing hype or emotion.

One of the issues with researching 357sig effectiveness is the lack of LE shootings data for the round... 357mag data shouldn't be mixed with 357sig because revolver barrel lengths are measured differently than semi-auto barrel lengths- revolvers use actual barrel length while S/A pistols include the chamber in their barrel lengths, which means data from LE shootings with 357mag enjoy about 1.25 inches more barrel length and velocity advantage over 357sig... An example would be an S&W 357mag revolver with a true 4 inch barrel versus a Sig p229 with a barrel an inch shorter because the chamber isn't barrel length.

I'd urge anyone interested to read the entire study at Greg's website:


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Don't revolvers lose velocity because so much gas escapes between the cylinder & barrel?

I remember some YT video explaining why you don't want your support hand in that spot when firing a revolver, the gas and unburnt powder shredded a hotdog in the demonstration.
 

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this forum needs to go back to what it was, and stop this BS about the OP ask for this or that, OP is very rude BTW if he/she knows so much why ask.
 

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I have .40 S&W, 9mm and .357 Sig barrels for it.
I will carry it for personal defense against humans (vs black bears which I also encounter).


For penetration verses black bear, hard cast bullets and the 357 Sig. For personal defense, depends on how many shots you need. All three calibers with hollow points will work.
 

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In the Lucky Gunner tests, for .357 Sig is the 125 Grain JHP - Winchester Elite PDX1 Defender the winner at 15" penetration, .69 expansion and 1423 velocity?

In the comments, allot of people are talking about Underwood 65 gr. Extreme Defender, the 90 gr. Extreme Defender and Grizzley, and the 125 gr, Gold Dots. How do they compare?
There is almost no body of objective, neutral, defensive/LE shooting data regarding the ultra light grain loads- it's mostly marketing and not results driven. Of the little real world data on 357sig's terminal performance against man, it's with conventional loads like 125gr JHP.

I'd go with a proven modern expanding JHP in the 125-135gr weight range.
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He then posted in that message that he owned a P229 and was wondering about the different ammunition that he specifically had barrels for. He has reaffirmed that in that he had a previous post about have a 40S&W blow out and sounds like he would like to try to avoid that in the future. I didn't offer any expertise from the DoD, the FBI or my local expert - I tried to emphasis that ammo or the lack thereof is becoming a significant issue for the gun and barrel he was inquiring about. My thought about ammo wars came out when I saw 10mm and 45acp mentioned that my P229 will never do - even though I'm old, I try to stay on topic.

I've never had the experience of having a 40 go sideways. Hope I never do.

Before I read what he said in the post you're referring to, in addition to the title I posted that you're responding to, this is his original post in its entirety:

"I like the P229.
I have .40 S&W, 9mm and .357 Sig barrels for it.
I will carry it for personal defense against humans (vs black bears which I also encounter).
.40 S&W vs. 9mm vs. .357 Sig which is more reliable and more appropriate for EDC personal defense?"


You said "OP [which stands for original poster" asked specifically about his P229 - not for caliber wars stories.

Those

Anything relevant to that discussion is then on the table even if it takes other turns as the conversation develops to the point it was in no way in my opinion to
He then posted in that message that he owned a P229 and was wondering about the different ammunition that he specifically had barrels for. He has reaffirmed that in that he had a previous post about have a 40S&W blow out and sounds like he would like to try to avoid that in the future. I didn't offer any expertise from the DoD, the FBI or my local expert - I tried to emphasis that ammo or the lack thereof is becoming a significant issue for the gun and barrel he was inquiring about. My thought about ammo wars came out when I saw 10mm and 45acp mentioned that my P229 will never do - even though I'm old, I try to stay on topic.

I've never had the experience of having a 40 go sideways. Hope I never do.
I see your point about 10mm and .45 ACP, and I am also completely in line with preventing the conversion from getting nasty (hence one of my prior posts in this discussion where I mentioned I can't see why it ever becomes an issue); however, in the natural evolution of a conversation between two or more people, it is natural for comparisons with other calibers to enter the discussion, and sometimes these can be helpful. I think the real issue is that the more the conversation opens up, the more opportunities there are for people to discuss things about calibers that lead to nastiness or have no way of coming back to the original questions (in other words, people take advantage of the discussion to espouse whatever comes to their mind, and in that way you're right). I think some digressions here and there are fine with me when I create posts as long as I get my questions answered satisfactorily. I don't have a problem with people taking it in other directions as long as they're respectful. And when people bring up irrelevant points or discussions that I am not interested in, I skip over them. That said, that's just how I feel about it and I can't speak for you or anyone else. Personally I LOVE discussing these things because it fascinates me. Even though I feel well versed on the subject, there are always little things here and there that I pick up and appreciate especially when the posts start to deviate a bit from the original question. If we started talking about .45 carbines or something, however, then I agree that's probably getting too far off topic.
 

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The 357 Sig, 45, 40 and 9mm in that order. The 9 IMHO is still a little anemic for my taste. I don't want to empty half a mag to stop the threat. Watch the 2019 Texas Church shooting video. Good guy drops bad guy with ONE shot from his p229 in 9mm 357 Sig! Enough said.
That incident is actually the one that shows that shot placement is king and caliber matters less.
 

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Discussion Starter #47 (Edited)
I ask questions, but also try to honor you all who answer by following up on what you say and by doing my own research. So, I just want to stick this right here:

357Sig and why more professionals carry it than most know. Reasons why.
 

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I have Sigs in 9mm, .357 Sig, .40 and .45.

My first choice is the .357; flatter shooting, lower recoil than .40, great terminal ballistics and in my opinion better feeding reliability due to case design.

Also lower perceived recoil than .40.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

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An interesting video for the discussion I think??


To address the original question .. I think all three are reliable. I think all three are appropriate for EDC.

I prefer to carry .40.

For nearly 20-25 years it was used by law enforcement all over the United States as well as in other countries. The "technological advancements" in 9mm didnt change the playing field and "for me" is a minimum carry caliber and presently... I dont own any.

My 40's are loaded with 155 grain hornady XTP round going about 1300 FPS. The gold dot 357 sig is a 125 going about 1350. I give up nothing but the muzzle flash.

Much of the hype for 9mm in my opinion is because law enforcement including the FBI had to accommodate a lower standard in physicality in its officers and its easier to teach and train on the cartridge. It doesnt make it the best at hurting people .. it just makes it easier for the masses to learn and use. Same for the AR platform and 9mm in the armed services. Had two buddies go into the NYPD academy in I think the mid to late 80's. they were the last class to have weight lifting tests or do the boxing drill.

Then after making the change ... 9mm was hyped by some as the gold standard. But I consider it to be like the Johns bargain store sneakers my mom would get me as a kid when everyone had keds and converse ... She would tell me "its just the same" but .. it really wasnt.

The other thing to consider is Carry capacity. The number 1 thing everyone touts as a bonus in 9mm is round count. It is my firm belief that before I am done on the planet I will see a mag limit nation wide. Oh .. and I am pretty old. If I have 10 rounds tops, even though most shootings end at 3 .. I want something with more Arse

9mm is a fine round .. and I often think we as gun nuts make to much of caliber and ammo considering gang bangers are killing each other quite regularly with range ammo they buy from the trunk of a car. I bet Winchester white box has killed more people in the united states than all the gold dots and most of it was 9mm.

Does it work .. of course .. but given I have choices that are past the trunk of a car .. gimme me a bit more umph
 

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Out of your 229 I would assume the 9mm barrel is a conversion, so I would go 40 or 357sig. Of those two I prefer 357 sig.
 

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Discussion Starter #52 (Edited)
Out of your 229 I would assume the 9mm barrel is a conversion, so I would go 40 or 357sig. Of those two I prefer 357 sig.
Yes, the 9mm barrel is a Barsto conversion barrel. The original .40 S&W is a Sig oem barrel which shipped with the gun when I bought it in 1992-1993. The .357SIG is a Sig oem barrel which I purchased later.

Since the gun shipped with 12-round magazines, which was prior to the California 10-round ban, I can use them. I am limited to 10-round mags in California for the 9mm. So to keep max mag capacity, my choice really comes down to .357SIG or .40 S&W.
 

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The 357 Sig, 45, 40 and 9mm in that order. The 9 IMHO is still a little anemic for my taste. I don't want to empty half a mag to stop the threat. Watch the 2019 Texas Church shooting video. Good guy drops bad guy with ONE shot from his p229 in 9mm 357 Sig! Enough said.
Texas church shooting? With that shot placement a .22 would have done the job.
 

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For those of you who swap .40 call for .357 Sig do you also have to adjust your sights? I have an H&K USP .40 with a .357 Sig barrel. The .357 Sig shoots left compared to the .40 S&W. It's true the Federal Air Marshals carry .357 Sig while the Flight Deck officers carry .40 S&W. I was told by the instructors it was a matter of which manufacturer came in with the lowest bid. I would take the .357 Sig over the 9mm because of the ballistics, but I carry a P365 so I am stuck with the 9mm.
 

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For me, the studies and data are interesting, but real world is not a ballistics report. I agree that it’s more important that what you are comfortable and accurate with than anything else. That being said... I’ve never been a fan of 40. I prefer 9, 357sig, and 45, depending on situation. What I mean is... for home defense in the middle of the night, I have the 45 by my bed. Grogginess and sudden adrenaline make my accuracy suffer, and if I am aiming center mass, I don’t want to have to take a bunch of follow up shots. 9 doesn’t cut it for me, and 357 sig’s muzzle blast and noise will disorient me as much as my attacker. When it’s hot, I carry my p365xl in 9mm, trading the concealibility for the possible necessity of multiple follow up shots. Fall and winter months, when I’m wearing heavier clothes, I prefer my p320 in 357 sig. The muzzle blast is intimidating, I have a much better chance at ending the threat with one shot, and I have more rounds than the 45. Plus, at close range the 9 and 45 are accurate enough, but if I have to pull the trigger on a target past 40 or 50 yards, the 357 sig is the only caliber I’m confident enough to “point and shoot” and feel I can hit the target most every time. Just my two cents. There really is no wrong answer, it’s just what works best for you.
 

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Stratusgunner.... yes the sights are different for 40 than 357 sig. 9mm and 357 share the same sights and 40 is different. Someone check me on this, but I believe 357 and 9 are #8 on both front and rear, and 40 is #6 front and #8 rear. So it is easy to adjust your hold if your changing barrels, just be aware of it. But that is up and down... you shouldn’t be shooting left for simply changing calibers.
 

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The choice of ammo is as important as the caliber. I shoot .45, .40, and 9mm. All of my defensive rounds are Federal HST. I prefer .40 as it offers a decent mag capacity and a bigger hole than 9mm. I also don’t shoot 9mm any better than the larger calibers.
The size of the hole is less than 1/50 of an inch on each side of the bullet and the .355” 147g bullet has a higher sectional density which correlates to better penetration than the .40 projectiles. Shot placement and penetration are the most important factors in defensive handgun use.
 
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